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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

Old 27th May 2020, 00:28
  #701 (permalink)  
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This is about the shock of disbelief and resultant bewilderment rather than an old bloke's memories.

DC3 Southend to Rochester (just across the Thames) P2-ing for bloke that had checked me out on type just days before. My first job.
He landed smoothly on the grass heading about 240. We were going like hell given that we were on the short 'runway'. He hauls it into the air, screws it hard to the left and ponks it back on again heading ~ south. The engines are purring smoothly as we zoom past our passenger who were all standing by their little wooden terminal. At some stage he told ATC that he couldn't lose height or airspeed. There was just a hint of a tremor in his voice. We are now going uphill with the engines still purring smoothly. There are trees in front of us . . . a lot of them. He hauls it into the air. I asked him if I should raise the gear. Yeh, yeh, gear up.

This man had been in the war. He was a senior pilot and TRE. He was obviously very shaken but maintained a quiet dignity as we hit some twigs at about about 50 kts. To our right was the highway, which to our very great fortune was sculpted out of the high ground. We kind of fell into it. In minuets we were lined up for another bash.

My days of assuming experienced guys would always do sensible things had come to an end very early in my career. This time I caught him pulling back on the RPM levers instead of the throttles. They're the nearest to him and longer, if one is searching for a reason for doing something very undesirable.

At no stage did he say anything, and nor did I - to anyone.
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Old 27th May 2020, 00:37
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Note that in the video the "RETARD" callout is heard which is what you would expect to hear on a normal landing. After a quick look in the FCOM I can’t find anything to say that having the gear up would stop this call, it seems to be simply triggered by the RA. As per Pavlov's dogs, the crew retard the thrust levers expecting a normal touchdown believing they are back in the ballpark.

But where do you draw the line for ATC intervention?
This crew were in excess of normal parameters by about double, ATC should have the authority to discontinue an approach when it exceedes normal plus a certain percentage, unless a MAYDAY call has been made. I don't want to be told to go around because I had VS - 1100 fpm briefly at 1000' but if a safe landing is in doubt, it's a further safety layer. Complying with an ATC instruction enables the crew to save face, anyone who has flown in Asian knows how important that is, and it cuts through confusion and tunnel vision.

In aircraft carrier operations, the Landing Signals Officer has full authority to "Wave Off" any approaching aircraft if it deviates from set parameters. I'm not suggesting this is needed at civil airports, but safety might be improved if ATC were to enforce a "gate" on arriving aircraft which if not met would result in an immediate instruction to go-around.

Last edited by krismiler; 27th May 2020 at 01:13.
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Old 27th May 2020, 00:39
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Originally Posted by Rapid D
All that fair enough. But my question remains...have you ever heard of a "turn to this heading" while an aircraft is cleared and established on an approach without actually cancelling the approach clearance? Never for me. And it wasn't a suggestive "would you like to turn left to lose altitude captain?" It was just a turn to the heading, captain said we are good.

An ATC directed heading after approach clearance is given should also involve cancellation of approach clearance. Can we agree on that?
It's possible that we do not yet have the complete audio between ATC and flight crew.
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Old 27th May 2020, 00:56
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Originally Posted by DaveJ75
So, in the scenario that the crew are so task saturated that the cacophony of audio alerts have gone unheeded, you believe an analogue instrument would have gained the attention of either pilot?
Somewhere along the descent from, let’s say around 8.000’, (Probably not yet really that task saturated...)
initially before, but especially starting and during the 'cacophony' parts,
there may have been a slight chance that at some moment,
any of those tiny little extra, visualised clues from pointer needles would have been noticed by either pilot.

Some simple needle pointers overriding complex 'sophisticated stuff', 'cacophony' (You started that...) and the subsequent 'hectics'...

Sooner or later possibly (re-)creating some (more, if any…)
situational awareness for either pilot (We don’t know who was (initially) PF/PM),
maybe, eventually even taking corrective action at last,
ultimately saving the day and many innocent lives...

After that getting back to business as usual,
and others never knowing whatever actually, really had happened…

But then again…
Here we sadly most probably will... Eventually…
Not going for the obvious... We're all trying to learn, don't we...?
learner . . .
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Old 27th May 2020, 01:40
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Old 27th May 2020, 02:04
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Still no confirmation on if this was 2 Co Captains or a low time FO?
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Old 27th May 2020, 02:08
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Originally Posted by Rapid D
An ATC directed heading after approach clearance is given should also involve cancellation of approach clearance. Can we agree on that?
If ATC instruct the aircraft to turn onto a specific heading that would be a new clearance, which therefore cancels the previous clearance.
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Old 27th May 2020, 02:15
  #708 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sikpilot
Still no confirmation on if this was 2 Co Captains or a low time FO?
Not sure that it matters though it is certainly of interest vis a vis CRM and human factors.

Consider: Asiana flight 214 at SFO that made a gross error in airspeed (35+ knots slow) in the opposite direction to 8303's over-speed approach. In that case, two Captains in two seats.
Originally Posted by summary of Asiana captains in the two front seats
Captain // right seat (co-pilot position) check / instructor captain and pilot in command, ...12,387 hours of flying experience of which 3,220 hours were in a 777.
Captain // left seat ... 9,793 hours of flying experience, of which 43 were in a 777 over nine flights
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Old 27th May 2020, 02:59
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Curious to know the period of time between the ill fated flight and pilots last flight because of COVID-19 lockdown.
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Old 27th May 2020, 03:08
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It might be a factor but if anything, if it was they should have been far more on the side of caution and take it easy rather than get it in at all cost.
Different companies have different gates for being stabilised, I’m not sure how many PIA have but it doesn’t look like this crew met even one of them.
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Old 27th May 2020, 03:41
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Voluntarily practiced daily fasting, I doubt could affect mental faculty. I guess we can be more technical and ethical than religious.
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Old 27th May 2020, 04:11
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Fully agree. But I know individuals that in analogy; stop exercising for long periods ( say 80 days) and then abruptly return and try to fit right back into their former routine which was only achievable because of the frequency of workouts and get an injury. So if off line for say 80 days and then abruptly return without proper mental preparation and don’t take that extra caution to keep it simple and precise you can get behind the aircraft in a hurry. Some egos don’t allow you to bail out and try it again.
just a theory of course.
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Old 27th May 2020, 05:51
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Visual clues aside, is the audible gear warning dependent on true position of the gear or purely the position of the lever?
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Old 27th May 2020, 06:05
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Originally Posted by Redlands
Visual clues aside, is the audible gear warning dependent on true position of the gear or purely the position of the lever?

Dependent on a gear down and locked indication.
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Old 27th May 2020, 06:18
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From Aviation Herald
On May 26th 2020 it became known, the data module of the cockpit voice recorder has not been found so far, only the housing had been recovered. The FDR including data module is about to be taken to Paris for read out by BEA whose investigators arrived in Karachi on May 26th 2020. Authorities are hopeful to find the CVR's data module during removal of the wreckage from the crash site.

On May 26th 2020 a spokesman of the airline reported only the cover of the CVR has been recovered so far. Residents of Model Colony are being urged to hand over any aircraft components found in their houses.

On May 26th 2020 evening the BEA reported their investigators are still on site, the FDR has not yet left Pakistan, the CVR has not been recovered.
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Old 27th May 2020, 06:23
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Originally Posted by ReturningVector
Dependent on a gear down and locked indication.
And some fine points in the attached Airbus safety publication.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf
a320-landing-gear-downlock.pdf (1.36 MB, 127 views)
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Old 27th May 2020, 07:22
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Have been digging into the pakistani internet. Found this:

https://historyofpia.com/forums/view...8780&start=300

Which is a local PIA/aviation forum. Quite factual info. After following a few clicks and links, it looks to me that the F/O was in fact NOT a captain. Also, other news will probably be found here first, and then be leaked out.
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Old 27th May 2020, 07:33
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Airbus team extends stay for Karachi Air Crash probe

Web Desk On May 27, 2020

KARACHI: A team of Airbus, arrived in Karachi on Tuesday to assist the probe in recent air crash of Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) flight PK-8303, visited the site of the crash again on Wednesday, ARY News reported.

A team of 11 French experts landed in Karachi on a special Airbus 338 yesterday morning and visited the location of the plane crash in Karachi.

Except two survivors, all 97 passengers and crew members of the aircraft that crashed into a residential area near Karachi airport were confirmed dead. However, no resident of the Model Colony’s Jinnah Garden, where the plane crashed, was among the deceased.The Airbus experts today reached the the plane crash location and expected to analyse the wreckage and collect samples with equipment. The team will also get assistance of drone cameras to inquire into the incident.

The team of experts expected to focus on search of the cockpit voice recorder of the aircraft which was not traced so far.

According to sources the French team has extended its stay in Pakistan for five more days due to the untraced vice recorder of the flight.

A spokesperson of PIA yesterday said that the cockpit voice recorder of the ill-fated PK-8303 was not recovered

The voice recorder which is installed in the rear side of the aircraft was not found by the investigators as yet, said the PIA spokesperson, adding that it is suspected that the voice recorder was dropped far from the crash site as the aircraft’s tail had hit the ground first.

The investigators have expanded the searching area to find out the missing voice recorder. The spokesperson appealed the residents not to put any part of the plane inside their houses. The citizens were also advised to immediately hand over the pieces of aircraft’s wreckage to the officials, investigation team or Rangers’ personnel.

The Airbus experts yesterday inspected the wreckage and marks of an attempt of belly landing of the flight at the runway of Karachi airport.

The team has also demanded complete record of one year of the Airbus 320 and also asked the number of times the aircraft was ground. The team also asked about the detail of the repair work on faults according to the checklist and other technical details.

The French team on Tuesday got a briefing from the PIA officials and asked about any fault of the alarming system of the airliner.
https://arynews.tv/en/airbus-team-ex...r-crash-probe/
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Old 27th May 2020, 07:46
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Originally Posted by Sikpilot
Still no confirmation on if this was 2 Co Captains or a low time FO?
Does this matter? Any 100h FO should and will make a better job than this one. If you can not get a serviceable A320 in CAVOC conditions, on a 11000 feet runway at sea level down in one piece, you should be nowhere near row 0. There are lots of ways to land a A320 even in a nonstandard cowboy style way, but not, if you forget everything you learned.
They had two INOP brains in row 0. The question remains, why.

ATC performance was good in this case. What can they do? The responsibility is with the pilots and they got all help from ATC.
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Old 27th May 2020, 08:04
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Originally Posted by EDLB
Does this matter? Any 100h FO should and will make a better job than this one..............
It might matter if - and this is purely hypothetical on my part - if there was a CRM problem where a Captain who was very autocratic and ego led, made a series of very bad decisions and a timid F/O felt they could not override them until it was too late.

F/Os are told to take control if a Captain is going badly wrong, but F/Os are not, as far as I know, ever actually trained in how to do this. Nor are they ever tested for it in my experience. Some of us are willing and able to take control, from a Captain who might be very senior and scary, others might be meek and timid - able and fully competent to safely land the plane if the Captain became incapacitated, but not able to wrest control from a (conscious) domineering and aggressive Captain.

If - again hypothetically - two Captains were on the flight deck, CRM problems could also arise: If the Captain in the LHS was the other Captain's boss, the junior Captain might not feel they could point out the mistakes of the senior guy and might have kept hoping he would eventually get it sorted. The SFO 777 that crashed short was an example of a junior Captain being unwilling to correct his boss.

Cabin crew get training in how to approach and talk to angry passengers etc, and calm them down, but I have never seen the scenario of an F/O overriding a difficult Captain addressed in CRM courses.

(I am not saying that any of this applied in the Karachi crash, I am just making a general point about CRM. Why such a poorly executed approach was continued rather than them going around and doing it again properly, absolutely mystifies me).
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