PIA A320 Crash Karachi

[FullWings]

Originally Posted by EDLB

There is always a lot to learn. The more interesting part will be the first few holes of that cheese. What was their set of mind at FL350 to even try this? They started their descend late, but why keep an impossible straight path? What was the mindset behind this? Why did CRM not prevent this decision making process?

I doubt that you make it with this decision making to 17000h, so what was different this time?

Oh yes, I’m sure it will be *interesting* but will there much useful info to take away and make your own operation safer? Don’t both have the prawn salad? It seems so far away from normal (or abnormal) procedure that incapacitation of some sort seems a possibility. If it isn’t and it turns out to be a totally misjudged approach with no CRM input, then “don’t bounce the aircraft off the runway at 215kts with the gear up” isn’t something I’m going to write in my diary and underline...

[Magplug]

Originally Posted by DaveReidUK

Unless I've missed something, no evidence has emerged yet that confirms the gear was lowered at all on the first approach.

My money says the FDR will show the aircraft to have been entirely serviceable up to the point where the engines first scraped the runway. We can however expect no end of 'Smoke & Mirrors' from the airline and government authorities in pursuit of 'No fault here' and 'We are a safe airline'. What is for sure is that they will go after the last man standing..... That will probably be the Head of training or Chief Pilot or whoever they can attach the slightest blame to. It's just the way it works there......

[EDLB]

Originally Posted by FullWings

then “don’t bounce the aircraft off the runway at 215kts with the gear up” isn’t something I’m going to write in my diary and underline...

That is one thing to take away. If you bounce the donks on the ground, they might be good for a minute or two but not for a full pattern. Don‘t think, that this was tested before.

PIA will be back on the European black list quick, if this investigation becomes botched. There is a lot of evidence and some survivors out there, so it will be difficult to make up stuff and get away with it.

[henra]

Originally Posted by EDLB

That is one thing to take away. If you bounce the donks on the ground, they might be good for a minute or two but not for a full pattern. Don‘t think, that this was tested before.

This was tested before with pretty much the same survival time of the engines. 90s.
We seem to find volunteers for all imaginable and also for the unimaginable mishap scenarios.
In 2018 Smartlynx managed to perform this test on a training flight. At least they were cautious enough to make an immediate return to the runway they scratched and came only slightly short and touched down a bit hard..
https://aviation-safety.net/database...?id=20180228-0

[Icelanta]

Guys, when hot and high, first thing to do is put the bloody gear down! It IS the best speedbrake, and is certified to be lowered up to quite high speeds, and safely so.
It is NOT Cowboy practice, it is using your available instruments to become esablished in a safe way, also called Airmanship.

That these guys did not put the gear down when being so hot and high beggars belief. And they were both Captains??!

[Check Airman]

Originally Posted by Magplug

What is for sure is that they will go after the last man standing..... That will probably be the Head of training or Chief Pilot or whoever they can attach the slightest blame to. It's just the way it works there......

Not substantially different here either...

[andrasz]

Originally Posted by Superpilot

Where is this assumption about two Captains coming from? A local news station has given the names. It was a normal crew pairing.

It was mentioned as an unconfirmed rumor a few hundred posts back.

[Dan_Brown]

Originally Posted by Livesinafield

Be very wary of reading any articles out of India and Pakistan on this matter, the two countries despise each other and are basically at war, so its unlikely much will be factual.

Someone mentioned the airline involved, maybe blacklisted from European skies. Don't put money on that or hold your breath.

[DType]

Well, I guess that >200 knots explains why there was no evidence of a tail strike (which had been puzzling me).

[freshgasflow]

With main landing gear down, is it possible to scrape both cowlings even with a very very hard landing ? Would it at least burst the tyres, if not damage the gear ? And if so, would there be very deep tyre marks on the runway surface?
Finally if gears were retracted prematurely during go around, can the hydraulics of the gear mechanism do so even when there is weight on the wheels ? Thank you.

[Toruk Macto]

Has anyone tried this in a sim ? 3500 ft say 200 knots at 5 miles . With gear up ? Flap 3 or full flap ? I’ve never tried but my gut tells me it would be hard to get near the threshold .
it’s got that feeling of “ hold my beer “ ?

[retired guy]

Originally Posted by ExSp33db1rd

Wasn't there a CFIT accident when the last thing heard on the CVR was the sound of the warning horn and the Captain saying " Shut up, Gringo" as he cancelled the horn ?

https://www.avcom.co.za/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=55384

Hi ex Sp
it was an early GPWS “pull up pull up” followed by “shut up gringo” followed by ....” end of recording “!

[andrasz]

Originally Posted by freshgasflow

With main landing gear down, is it possible to scrape both cowlings even with a very very hard landing ?

In short, no. Maximum oleo compression will still give plenty of clearance.

[retired guy]

Originally Posted by Toruk Macto

Has anyone tried this in a sim ? 3500 ft say 200 knots at 5 miles . With gear up ? Flap 3 or full flap ? I’ve never tried but my gut tells me it would be hard to get near the threshold .
it’s got that feeling of “ hold my beer “ ?

Toruk. Done it for real. A few times in a long career. Just got into too high and fast through nobody’s fault. Circumstances. No sweat at all. GA with circuit to land or 360 on finals (quieter airports) or vectors for second approach. All very leisurely really. But to answer your question, sim or no sim you see what happens if you “try it”. Throw it away and learn as with all errors that occur. Hope that’s helpful?
Ret’d Guy

[Toruk Macto]

Originally Posted by retired guy

Toruk. Done it for real. A few times in a long career. Just got into too high and fast through nobody’s fault. Circumstances. No sweat at all. GA with circuit to land or 360 on finals (quieter airports) or vectors for second approach. All very leisurely really. But to answer your question, sim or no sim you see what happens if you “try it”. Throw it away and learn as with all errors that occur. Hope that’s helps

Ret’d Guy
We all been there and that’s good advice
I’m interested if it can be physically done ? 250 knots from 5 miles at that altitude , with gear up will a 320 actually get anywhere near the threshold ? If not then the gear must have been down at some stage, in my opinion only .

[Joejosh999]

On the NWest overfly of MSP I think the flight crew said they’d become too distracted by their iPads. IIRC the skinny was the flight attendants woke them up lol.

[Airbubba]

Originally Posted by oldchina

The AIB A330 flight is heading for Toulouse. No goodies for the BEA?

They were filed for Le Bourget and diverted to Toulouse approaching Genoa. An interesting change of plans.

[Joejosh999]

You do have to wonder, if they’d tear dropped, and/or left the gear up, might they have gotten down more or less in one piece.

[Seat4A]

A couple of short video clips in this article that I had not seen in other media

Crash d’un A320 à Karachi. Des enquêteurs du BEA français se rendent au Pakistan

https://www.ouest-france.fr/monde/pa...kistan-6846075


And






Source

Twitter

[procede]

Originally Posted by Airbubba

They were filed for Le Bourget and diverted to Toulouse approaching Genoa. An interesting change of plans.

It could be that le Bourget was not open for an aircraft this size, due to limited firefighting capacity. They'll probably now transport the CVR and FDR by road.