PIA A320 Crash Karachi
Hot, High, Fast.........Could it be someone on the flightdeck was a Maverick or had CRM issues that they selves were simply not aware of. Could it be a simple matter of having a perfectly serviceable aircraft destroyed to human error. Hot, High, Fast ? Distraction caused by being behind the aircraft leading to human error.
Total genius - I think you've cracked it. Hot, high AND fast? So a cabin conditioning snag too? Maybe Maverick was distracted by Goose being behind the aircraft?
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I don’t recall seeing any mention of WHY it was being flown in that manner. Was there some additional factor in play, such as VIP pax, or pressing need for an on-time arrival? There does seem to be some sort of urgency involved in proceedings, although the reported reluctance to accept lower FLs from ATC adds another puzzle factor ... WHY stay high, when the procedures say descend?
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Time pressure possibility 1.
One passenger who tried and failed to board in Lahore said in a later interview that this was the last flight to beat the lockdown in Karachi, so he really needed to be on board, and only a repeating computer glitch had prevented him from completing ticket purchase.
One passenger who tried and failed to board in Lahore said in a later interview that this was the last flight to beat the lockdown in Karachi, so he really needed to be on board, and only a repeating computer glitch had prevented him from completing ticket purchase.
I am of the opinion a false G/S (6degs) was captured, locked onto and flown all the way to the r/w. Being "established" gave a false sense of security.
If the FAF Dis and height were checked this may never have happened.
The FAF is a very important check, no matter how modern the avionics in the aircraft. The G/S must be captured from below of course, as we all know.
Accident reports, are just that. Reports.we can all see what happened but why??
If the FAF Dis and height were checked this may never have happened.
The FAF is a very important check, no matter how modern the avionics in the aircraft. The G/S must be captured from below of course, as we all know.
Accident reports, are just that. Reports.we can all see what happened but why??
Last edited by Dan_Brown; 25th May 2020 at 15:54.
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I don’t recall seeing any mention of WHY it was being flown in that manner. Was there some additional factor in play, such as VIP pax, or pressing need for an on-time arrival? There does seem to be some sort of urgency involved in proceedings, although the reported reluctance to accept lower FLs from ATC adds another puzzle factor ... WHY stay high, when the procedures say descend?
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If you are caught on high in an A320 the best way to lose altitude is to reduce speed, configure to flaps 3 and gear down, select speed 160 , and use open descent until you capture the glide slope,
speed brakes could be used then, The approach MUST be stabilised above 1000 fee AGL. Do not continue the approach if not stabilised below 1000 AGL, heroes die young.
speed brakes could be used then, The approach MUST be stabilised above 1000 fee AGL. Do not continue the approach if not stabilised below 1000 AGL, heroes die young.
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Yes The other mistake which people most commonly make and can be grave in glide slope from above is when people put the altitude selector above to not capture it in the end they accidently pull the selector leading from open descend or vs to open climb
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Regardless of the gear situation and short of catastrophic failure, I still can’t fathom any attempt at landing when your high and hot at 5nm final! 3500’ at 5nm is almost double altitude so my brain is already in GA mode. If the aeroplane was that out of sorts you land on first attempt even if it’s belly first. Lots of real head scratchers here. That aeroplane got way ahead of those boys. How that happened remains to be seen but it’s bloody tragedy.
PS: ATC needs to control these cowboys in Pakistan”
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If you are caught on high in an A320 the best way to lose altitude is to reduce speed, configure to flaps 3 and gear down, select speed 160 , and use open descent until you capture the glide slope,
speed brakes could be used then, The approach MUST be stabilised above 1000 fee AGL. Do not continue the approach if not stabilised below 1000 AGL, heroes die young.
speed brakes could be used then, The approach MUST be stabilised above 1000 fee AGL. Do not continue the approach if not stabilised below 1000 AGL, heroes die young.
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Except for the 1 post that mentioned that it was 2 Captains flying has there been any mention of the 2 pilots TT and time on the A320? Usually by now their names and history are posted somewhere.
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Time pressure possibility 1.
One passenger who tried and failed to board in Lahore said in a later interview that this was the last flight to beat the lockdown in Karachi, so he really needed to be on board, and only a repeating computer glitch had prevented him from completing ticket purchase.
One passenger who tried and failed to board in Lahore said in a later interview that this was the last flight to beat the lockdown in Karachi, so he really needed to be on board, and only a repeating computer glitch had prevented him from completing ticket purchase.
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Though good observation!
And even if they did. I can not see a reason why two captains kill themself and 90+ people in a serviceable airplane in Cavoc conditions. You know 20 minutes in advance, that this glide path will not work. One captain with 17000 hours has seen a 3 degree profile multiple thousand of times out his window. A 7.5 degree profile looks a lot different. Sure you can do that in a SEP floatplane or a Soyuz capsule hanging on a parachute, but not with a clean airliner. Why they continued with this stunt the recorders will hopefully tell. You got a Corona empty airspace with bored ATC, so why rush this approach? A circle anywhere and they could have established a nice glidepath.
About rust, sure, but do you think you are unfit to drive a car after a few weeks pause?
You got two experienced guys in row 0. So why did they kill themself? That is the riddle the investigation has to find out.
About rust, sure, but do you think you are unfit to drive a car after a few weeks pause?
You got two experienced guys in row 0. So why did they kill themself? That is the riddle the investigation has to find out.
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And even if they did. I can not see a reason why two captains kill themself and 90+ people in a serviceable airplane in Cavoc conditions. You know 20 minutes in advance, that this glide path will not work. One captain with 17000 hours has seen a 3 degree profile multiple thousand of times out his window. A 7.5 degree profile looks a lot different. Sure you can do that in a SEP floatplane or a Soyuz capsule hanging on a parachute, but not with a clean airliner. Why they continued with this stunt the recorders will hopefully tell. You got a Corona empty airspace with bored ATC, so why rush this approach? A circle anywhere and they could have established a nice glidepath.
About rust, sure, but do you think you are unfit to drive a car after a few weeks pause?
You got two experienced guys in row 0. So why did they kill themself? That is the riddle the investigation has to find out.
About rust, sure, but do you think you are unfit to drive a car after a few weeks pause?
You got two experienced guys in row 0. So why did they kill themself? That is the riddle the investigation has to find out.
Administrator
Thank you for your kind reply. 
Why do you feel that you have something to add without new evidence, as that topic was already introduced to this thread? This goes for you as well, Cloudtopper. You'd already brought it up early on.
Go back and read the first two pages (down to about post number 65) of this rather long thread - this topic has already been raised.
Here are the first five posts that survived the bickering, A, B, C, D, E. They start with Cloudtopper's post which is number 10 of this ever-growing thread.
What you won't see if you review the beginning of this thread is the few dozen posts that were deleted - raising that issue began an almost immediate pile of noise and argument, accusations of racism, and other unprofessional nonsense. If you keep reading, you'll find an admonishment by PilotDAR (a mod) to lay off.
The human factors piece of this accident has a lot of aspects to it; and (absent further information) very little factual material to support our various guesses and speculations on that element.
If you'd read this thread, you'd know that perhaps. So why were you bringing it up again?
Why do you feel that you have something to add without new evidence, as that topic was already introduced to this thread? This goes for you as well, Cloudtopper. You'd already brought it up early on.
Go back and read the first two pages (down to about post number 65) of this rather long thread - this topic has already been raised.
Here are the first five posts that survived the bickering, A, B, C, D, E. They start with Cloudtopper's post which is number 10 of this ever-growing thread.
What you won't see if you review the beginning of this thread is the few dozen posts that were deleted - raising that issue began an almost immediate pile of noise and argument, accusations of racism, and other unprofessional nonsense. If you keep reading, you'll find an admonishment by PilotDAR (a mod) to lay off.
The human factors piece of this accident has a lot of aspects to it; and (absent further information) very little factual material to support our various guesses and speculations on that element.
If you'd read this thread, you'd know that perhaps. So why were you bringing it up again?
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One way of operating an aircraft safely is to have a briefing at a sensible period of low workload, in which the crew openly and cooperatively discuss the approach, the threats to be faced, the required performance of the aircraft, how the aircraft is to be operated and what modes/level of automation to be used, and a number of points or gates during the approach where the energy can be measured against the planned profile. These gates can then be used as decision points as to whether it is safe and sensible to continue the approach, or whether the configuration of the aircraft should be changed or extra track miles should be requested.
Ultimately, both pilots will ensure that at a bottom line, let's say 1000 agl, that if the aircraft is not on the centre line and prescribed glide path, with the speed stable and close to target and the engines at approach thrust - a go around shall be flown.
Some occupants of some aircraft flight decks may use different methods or no methods at all to achieve different outcomes.
Ultimately, both pilots will ensure that at a bottom line, let's say 1000 agl, that if the aircraft is not on the centre line and prescribed glide path, with the speed stable and close to target and the engines at approach thrust - a go around shall be flown.
Some occupants of some aircraft flight decks may use different methods or no methods at all to achieve different outcomes.