PIA A320 Crash Karachi
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The data doesn't indicate at all that the gear was never down (which is what you suggested), merely that it never contacted the ground (i.e. no wow). It's possible it was never down, but I'd say less probable given the CRC at 750ft.
Need to see the whole approach data. The first 2 lines of Airbubba's data- 800' to 475' in 11 seconds appears unstable though not enough data to prove it.
I also think the CVR will be quite revealing.
I also think the CVR will be quite revealing.
Well the FO in Dubai certainly raised the gear too early. We will find out soon enough what happened in Karachi. But I am unclear why if the gear was selected up prior to the unintended ground contact you would expect to see anything different on the table Airbubba posted. The fact that PIA landed previous generations of jets wheels up is not really relevant to the warning systems on modern aircraft. I would be interested if anyone else typed on the A320 thinks forgetting the gear is a likely scenario.
Well, maybe they had a scrape. But apparently their engines were able to spool up and provide TOGA thrust. So why schould they both, quite simultaneously, suddenly cut out? Why no APU start? (RAT deployed). To me, (layman!!!) all this points to problems with fuel supply. And the landing gear? No hydraulic pressure? And even when that, is there to a grav-assisted lowering of the gear? Nothing here seems to make sense.
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Well the FO in Dubai certainly raised the gear too early. We will find out soon enough what happened in Karachi. But I am unclear why if the gear was selected up prior to the unintended ground contact you would expect to see anything different on the table Airbubba posted. The fact that PIA landed previous generations of jets wheels up is not really relevant to the warning systems on modern aircraft. I would be interested if anyone else typed on the A320 thinks forgetting the gear is a likely scenario.
As for the Airbubba table. It helps to rule out a bounce which was one scenario brought foward.
I never brought up any past PIA incident.
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[QUOTE=Bluffontheriver123;10790640]This video nails it pretty well.
3500’ at 5nm (over 2x the normal path), overspeed warning on recording, pod strike in the pictures and ATC mention “a belly up landing”.
Looks like high energy unstable approach, leading to a crash landing bounce, go-around into the circuit. Essentially crashed the jet then tried to fly it.
Hi all
I would like to throw my 2 cents on the video recording which I must say is a very nicely made one . m an atc
1.
at a time 2:25
C: you have to be turning left
P: we are proceeding direct we lost both engines
C: confirm belly lending
My opinion . It indicates To me that a controller didn’t quite understand the message that pilot transmitted and he was clarifying the message itself it does not mean that the controller was expecting or was aware of belly landing from the pilots and he was just digesting the transmitted message and not contemplating a belly landing itself. But both engines sound similar to belly landing . Add stress and distortions.
The second thing that came into my mind is that just on the climb upon going around there is no unusual messages from the ATC it’s quite obvious that if there was something happening the controller must have seen it and informed the pilot immediately let’s say if they saw them having gear issues and scratching the runway they should have immediately informed the pilot. Theres so many reports of marks on RW and people seeing first attempted landing with no gear m really surprised theres no mention of anything from ATC side . Triggers tons of questions.
The third thing is that if they had some problems with the gear just before the first landing attempt they should have also informed the controller about it and that would have triggered alerting certain services to a local standby/ emergency immediately as gear problems on the runway can result in very many unpleasant things for everybody so it’s never taken casually by an ATC. But that again might depend on the part of the world .
Looks like they are quite reserved in RT over there i have million questions as for ATC -pilot interaction, phraseology and all, not to mention a gear up 3500’ 5 mile thing...quite nasty .
3500’ at 5nm (over 2x the normal path), overspeed warning on recording, pod strike in the pictures and ATC mention “a belly up landing”.
Looks like high energy unstable approach, leading to a crash landing bounce, go-around into the circuit. Essentially crashed the jet then tried to fly it.
Hi all
I would like to throw my 2 cents on the video recording which I must say is a very nicely made one . m an atc
1.
at a time 2:25
C: you have to be turning left
P: we are proceeding direct we lost both engines
C: confirm belly lending
My opinion . It indicates To me that a controller didn’t quite understand the message that pilot transmitted and he was clarifying the message itself it does not mean that the controller was expecting or was aware of belly landing from the pilots and he was just digesting the transmitted message and not contemplating a belly landing itself. But both engines sound similar to belly landing . Add stress and distortions.
The second thing that came into my mind is that just on the climb upon going around there is no unusual messages from the ATC it’s quite obvious that if there was something happening the controller must have seen it and informed the pilot immediately let’s say if they saw them having gear issues and scratching the runway they should have immediately informed the pilot. Theres so many reports of marks on RW and people seeing first attempted landing with no gear m really surprised theres no mention of anything from ATC side . Triggers tons of questions.
The third thing is that if they had some problems with the gear just before the first landing attempt they should have also informed the controller about it and that would have triggered alerting certain services to a local standby/ emergency immediately as gear problems on the runway can result in very many unpleasant things for everybody so it’s never taken casually by an ATC. But that again might depend on the part of the world .
Looks like they are quite reserved in RT over there i have million questions as for ATC -pilot interaction, phraseology and all, not to mention a gear up 3500’ 5 mile thing...quite nasty .
Last edited by voiceinurheadset; 23rd May 2020 at 22:37.
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I think ATC has a bit of a case to answer here, as well.
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This annoys the heck out of me too. I've seen it on the line way too many times. Trigger happy PMs (in both seats), who are more concerned about going through the song/dance than looking for the real cues. Training for positive rate/climb identification is based on teaching pilots to recognise a positive V/S trend and increasing RA. You can both of those parameters (momentarily) without engine power. The FMA for a go around and dealing with the lack of it is way more important than raising the landing gear.
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I would be interested if anyone else typed on the A320 thinks forgetting the gear is a likely scenario.
https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...r/ao-2018-042/
For those saying that the landing gear was retracted too early I would disagree. It never happened.
When the gear is selected up the gear doors open. They hang down below the level of the nacelle until the leg has retracted. If they had contacted the runway they would have been substantially damaged but in the photo of the aircraft showing the rat extended the door looks intact, so in my opinion the gear was never extended on the first approach.
You can watch a gear swing here-
https://youtu.be/vfGn_1shZAs
When the gear is selected up the gear doors open. They hang down below the level of the nacelle until the leg has retracted. If they had contacted the runway they would have been substantially damaged but in the photo of the aircraft showing the rat extended the door looks intact, so in my opinion the gear was never extended on the first approach.
You can watch a gear swing here-
https://youtu.be/vfGn_1shZAs
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