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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

Old 26th Jun 2020, 04:51
  #1401 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by grizzled View Post
Not true at all. Read the report, especially with regard to the timeline from just before the "Pan Pan Pan" call until the turn to Halifax. Then read the transcript, from 1:14 to 1:16 UTC.
I suggest you do some research before posting something that casts aspersions on the crew that died in that accident. We all make mistakes and we should all learn from the mistakes of others but in this case your comment is incredibly disrespectful -- because it's false.
The point I was making is that western airlines also get things wrong and my comments about the Swiss MD11 were overly simplistic. I haven't read the report in a very long time, but from memory they first elected to turn back and subsequently accepted the nearer Halifax but didn't make it as they were dumping fuel to avoid an overweight landing. The lessons to learn were multiple including the use of flammable materials in aircraft and cockpit smoke procedures. The crew were certainly dealt a bum hand that day as the followed the checklists. All of this is thread creep. The final report will identify why the PIA crew got it so badly wrong just as the final reports in the Cross Air, Air France and Swiss 111 pointed out what went wrong.
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 06:00
  #1402 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by AfricanSkies View Post
These pilots were either drunk, or;

This flying culture is so ingrained at PIA that both of them were completely comfortable with it (as they actually stated), and had got away with such behaviour on a regular basis in the past. From which you can probably deduce that other pilots at PIA behave in a similar fashion, on a regular basis.
Exactly. Everything about this extraordinary performance defies logic, reason and common sense. It was a deviation so far from normal it had to be deliberate, and almost certainly agreed to or at least uncontested by the pilot not flying. Whatever the intent, this otherwise perfectly airworthy airplane ended up where it did because two competent, experienced pilots put it there.

Last edited by ferry pilot; 26th Jun 2020 at 06:02. Reason: format
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 08:00
  #1403 (permalink)  
 
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The time frame of inquiry report of two years onwards makes it meaningless. Because during such a long period some other incident/accident takes place and the focus shifts. Till the full report considering all dimensions and factors is out on what basis the operator will change operating or maintenance practices? Do other non involved airlines ever get to know what happened some years back in another corner of the earth? In two years time after the dust is settled the world moves on.
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 08:50
  #1404 (permalink)  
 
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You only have to take a look at some of the videos on YouTube filmed from the flight deck to see practices that should scare the living daylights out of you as a passenger.

I feel there must be something more to this than poor decision making and ropey CRM. Awaiting the final report with interest.
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 08:51
  #1405 (permalink)  
 
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PIA have been banned internationally before and following their own government's highlighting of forged licences and other problems I would be surprised if this is not being currently considered. As far as learning points go, this crew appear to have displayed a level of competence of someone playing flight simulator for the first time. So I am not sure how relevant it is. The tragedy is that they were so close to the airport in the final moments. Had they lowered the gear later they might just have made it. But given the rest of their performance it is hardly surprising that they did not.
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 09:45
  #1406 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Euclideanplane View Post
Quite a decent summary with some simulations:

Youtube - Captain Mayday - UPDATE: Investigation Report leaks & Landing Gear details Pakistan International Airlines PK8303

It also seems to affirm that the photos of the scrape itself are indeed authenthic.
Thanks for sharing. Besides everything that has been said, shared and discussed already, I still find it crucial if the pilots potenitally really did not hear the GPWS "too low gear warning".
In any case it was a criminal approach- no doubt - but it is really hard to believe that they ignored the GPWS "too low gear warning". The "gear not down warning" in the ECAM might have been missed because of the anyways ongoing CRC and ECAM warnings for flap overspeed.
But ignoring the aural "too low gear" would be inexplicable for me. Thus, I found the scenario in the video valid and interesting to follow up on.
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 12:24
  #1407 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by vilas View Post
The time frame of inquiry report of two years onwards makes it meaningless. Because during such a long period some other incident/accident takes place and the focus shifts. Till the full report considering all dimensions and factors is out on what basis the operator will change operating or maintenance practices? Do other non involved airlines ever get to know what happened some years back in another corner of the earth? In two years time after the dust is settled the world moves on.
Now that Minister Khan has publicly announced his own definitive conclusions, blaming flight crew, cabin crew and ATC, partly with no basis in the preliminary report, let us at least hope to avoid a similar aftermath as in the Überlingen collision.
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 12:52
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Originally Posted by learner001 View Post
That's correct... It's done with the priority take over button on the side stick...

However, I found that the majority of pilots I encounter in the Airbus, have no clue how that 'feature' really works...
i have to admit it is a little bit ambiguous...yet it is very important that one know EXACTLY how it works
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 14:30
  #1409 (permalink)  
 
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. The "gear not down warning" in the ECAM might have been missed because of the anyways ongoing CRC and ECAM warnings for flap overspeed.
But ignoring the aural "too low gear" would be inexplicable for me
There is phenomenon called inattentional blindness also deafness where people can miss things in field of vision or not able to hear warnings.
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 15:00
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Originally Posted by lederhosen View Post
The tragedy is that they were so close to the airport in the final moments. Had they lowered the gear later they might just have made it. But given the rest of their performance it is hardly surprising that they did not.
I suspect that this question will be addressed in the final report but I was wondering if the outcome would have been better for everyone if they hadn't attempted a go-around. Presumably with the engines hitting the runway they slowed down quite a bit and would have stopped short of the end of the runway. Sure there is the risk of fire but they were already on the ground and slowing down so why not accept that outcome?

Looking at the preliminary report I also suspect that the biggest evidence will come from the CVR and from a psychological assessment especially as there is already a documented lack of CRM and adherence to standard call outs. Is this sort of thing normal for PIA?

Finally, the prelim report doesn't talk about the crew lowering the gear at all on approach. I know that previously it was suggested that the gear was lowered but aircraft protection kicked in due to the high speed so I'm hoping that question is resolved in the full report.
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 15:01
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Originally Posted by vilas View Post
There is phenomenon called inattentional blindness also deafness where people can miss things in field of vision or not able to hear warnings.
There is a great video on this on youtube. If you've not seen it before it's very interesting to watch and it's less than two minutes long.
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 15:25
  #1412 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by williamsg View Post
Finally, the prelim report doesn't talk about the crew lowering the gear at all on approach.
It's not discussed in the narrative, but the report makes it clear that's what happened.
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 15:28
  #1413 (permalink)  
 
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Gear mentioned

From the interim report

"The FDR indicated action of lowering of the landing gears at 7221 ft at around 10.5 Nautical Miles from Runway 25L.​​​​​​"

​​​​​​"Landing approach was not discontinued. However, FDR shows action of raising of the landing gears at 1740 ft"
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 15:30
  #1414 (permalink)  
 
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I'm puzzled by the GPWS related posts.

Could somebody independently look at what GPWS warnings they would have encountered. As best I can tell - Given their airspeed and gear selection and flap selection from the report, they would have heard the Mode 4A TOO LOW TERRAIN" warning somewhere around 500 ft. That's it. There would have not been a TOO LOW GEAR warning at all.

Last edited by nnc0; 26th Jun 2020 at 16:11.
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 16:03
  #1415 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GAPU View Post
[QUOTE Finally, the prelim report doesn't talk about the crew lowering the gear at all on approach. I know that previously it was suggested that the gear was lowered but aircraft protection kicked in due to the high speed so I'm hoping that question is resolved in the full report.
From the interim report
"The FDR indicated action of lowering of the landing gears at 7221 ft at around 10.5 Nautical Miles from Runway 25L.​​​​​​"

​​​​​​"Landing approach was not discontinued. However, FDR shows action of raising of the landing gears at 1740 ft"
any chance it could lower by itself?

I don't recall any historical incident that might apply in the last 30 years
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 16:14
  #1416 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by nnc0 View Post


I'm puzzled by the GPWS related posts.

Could somebody independently look at what GPWS warnings they would have encountered. As best I can tell - Given their airspeed and gear selection and flap selection from the report, they would have heard the Mode 4A TOO LOW TERRAIN" warning somewhere around 500 ft. That's it. There would have not been a TOO LOW GEAR warning at all.
This doubt arises because latest flight manual doesn't mention the speed requirement to trigger too low gear. The details of 4a and 4b are eliminated.
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 16:22
  #1417 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by GAPU View Post
[QUOTE Finally, the prelim report doesn't talk about the crew lowering the gear at all on approach. I know that previously it was suggested that the gear was lowered but aircraft protection kicked in due to the high speed so I'm hoping that question is resolved in the full report.
From the interim report

"The FDR indicated action of lowering of the landing gears at 7221 ft at around 10.5 Nautical Miles from Runway 25L.​​​​​​"

​​​​​​"Landing approach was not discontinued. However, FDR shows action of raising of the landing gears at 1740 ft"[/QUOTE]

Yup, it does say that - sorry, my initial post could have been clearer. The report doesn't say anything about the gear not going down because of the speed protections.
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 16:43
  #1418 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by vilas View Post
This doubt arises because latest flight manual doesn't mention the speed requirement to trigger too low gear. The details of 4a and 4b are eliminated.
Here they are from the 2018 Getting to Grips with Surveillance document





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Old 26th Jun 2020, 19:24
  #1419 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by siropalomar View Post
Thanks for the info. But let me insist on one thing: some basic data (after having lost engine thrust) seem to be quite important for the investigation :speed, altitude, vertical speed, flight control inputs, attitude.....are Airbus planes designed to lose FDR operation in this condition????
tdracer went into some detail on this earlier

PIA A320 Crash Karachi
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Old 26th Jun 2020, 19:26
  #1420 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by asdf1234 View Post
I will defer to a bus driver to address the specifics but I would have thought any standby instrument not powered by either of the main bus will have it's own memory which could be retrieved (subject to the unit surviving the abrupt end of the flight).
Some of the older planes have mechanical stby instruments. If this was one such plane, I doubt there's any means to record data.
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