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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

Old 25th Jun 2020, 00:48
  #1341 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Winemaker View Post
But the reversers won't activate until weight on wheels?
Still an ECAM will show up. It sometimes happens after flare if you're too quickly using reverse. It disappears inein lthan half a second (when it senses WOW).I've seen it a few times and never had the chance to fully read the ecam title.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 00:56
  #1342 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by simple9 View Post
Still an ECAM will show up. It sometimes happens after flare if you're too quickly using reverse. It disappears inein lthan half a second (when it senses WOW).I've seen it a few times and never had the chance to fully read the ecam title.
I'm guessing it's one of these.

ENG 1(2) REV SWITCH FAULT
ENG 1(2) REVERSER FAULT
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 01:08
  #1343 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Check Airman View Post
I'm guessing it's one of these.

ENG 1(2) REV SWITCH FAULT
ENG 1(2) REVERSER FAULT
In this case, at that moment in time, I would think there is very little chance that any ECAM messages -- or other visual or aural alerts -- were registering in either of the two minds on that flight deck.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 01:19
  #1344 (permalink)  
 
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You have to wonder if this was not the first rodeo for this crew. The only way anyone could be
“ comfortable” in those circumstances would be from experience you don’t get by straightening up and flying right. There may be much more to this story than what is on those recorders.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 02:13
  #1345 (permalink)  
 
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Question for those who fly the A320.
I note this.
(l) The aircraft crashed about 1340 meters short from runway 25L. It was a slow speed impact with high angle of attack, with aircraft configuration indicating landing gears extended, slats at step / position 1, and flaps retracted. The said configuration was ascertained and documented from the wreckage at the crash site (as the FDR data recording had stopped earlier).
They were likely startled by the loss of the engines, and they did not have much altitude to play with. (Much earlier in the thread we see a video clip as the plane goes down, with the nose up and wheels down as they reached the tragic end).
My question: with the gear up (in other words, had they left the gear up for longer once the engines were done) was there any chance that the aircraft would have reached the field rather than coming down in the residential area "1340 meters short from frunway 25L"?
(Yes, I do realize that landing on the engines with the wheels up poses other risks, and I am not sure how long it takes a startled crew to get the wheels down with most of the systems gone off line).

Ever since Sully's landing in the Hudson River I would hope that, now and again, crews are tested in the sims against a loss of both engines not too far from the ground (a few thousand feet) to see what the plane does and how far it can "stretch" with the engines gone.
Yes, that's the old training officer in me thinking through crew training. I ask because I don't know what gets thrown at A320 crews during sim sessions, and what the general feel is on how far one can 'stretch' a dead engines glide before one must commit to putting it down.

EDIT: I see a comment from 1549 thread that
glide ratio should be about 18:1, or slightly better. For every 1000' of altitude you can go 3 n.m.
but I don't think you get all that unless you are going straight in. I think they had to turn back, or turn some amount, to get there once the engines stopped, since they were heading back for another approach ...

Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 25th Jun 2020 at 02:34.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 02:23
  #1346 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Check Airman View Post
On the 320, the RAT can be used to power a backup generator via a hydraulic pump.
Just curious - but is that basic (and automatic) on the A320?
I know on the 757/767 they added hydraulic generator - but that wasn't basic, it was part of the (optional) ETOPS package. They battery was supposed to be good for 30 minutes (only powering critical systems) which was basically as long as you could realistically glide after an all engine power loss. The hydraulic generator was for case where you lost main bus electrical power but the engines were still running (I don't think it could operate off the RAT, but I'm not positive). RAT hydraulic power is pretty limited...
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 03:41
  #1347 (permalink)  
 
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Hi Tdracer,
The rat is basic on A320, not optional. It’s a no go item if the RAT is inop.
It will deploy automatically if AC Buses 1 and 2 are lost. Can also be deployed manually.
For Hydraulic issue, the RAT must be deployed manually. No auto extension.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 04:01
  #1348 (permalink)  
 
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tdracer

AC1 and AC2 are the 2 main AC busses on the 320. The hydraulic and electrical power coming from the A320 RAT isn't spectacular either, but it'll get you home (in the sim).
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 05:01
  #1349 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
Just curious - but is that basic (and automatic) on the A320?
I know on the 757/767 they added hydraulic generator - but that wasn't basic, it was part of the (optional) ETOPS package. They battery was supposed to be good for 30 minutes (only powering critical systems) which was basically as long as you could realistically glide after an all engine power loss. The hydraulic generator was for case where you lost main bus electrical power but the engines were still running (I don't think it could operate off the RAT, but I'm not positive). RAT hydraulic power is pretty limited...
The RAT in Airbus has to be basic. Because with engines gone both EDP driven hydraulic systems are also lost. RAT basically drives the third hydraulic system called BLUE in Airbus without which you cannot move flight controls. Blue in turn drives the emergency CSM 5kw generator which provide sufficient electrics for essential systems. If Emergency generator is lost batteries can similarly. provide DC essential and through static inverter AC essential for 30mts.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 05:01
  #1350 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by pineteam View Post
Hi Tdracer,
The rat is basic on A320, not optional. It’s a no go item if the RAT is inop.
It will deploy automatically if AC Buses 1 and 2 are lost. Can also be deployed manually.
For Hydraulic issue, the RAT must be deployed manually. No auto extension.
Sorry, I wasn't clear - I know the RAT is basic (as it is on everything Boeing currently builds except the 737 - which can be flown without any hydraulics if you need to).
I was specifically asking about the hydraulic generator.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 05:05
  #1351 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
Sorry, I wasn't clear - I know the RAT is basic (as it is on everything Boeing currently builds except the 737 - which can be flown without any hydraulics if you need to).
I was specifically asking about the hydraulic generator.
Yes the generator comes with that. But as you know hydraulics is more important than electrics.

Last edited by vilas; 25th Jun 2020 at 08:07.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 06:03
  #1352 (permalink)  

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Originally Posted by Superpilot View Post
Pakistan media now getting into a frenzy about fake licenses with one minister claiming up to 40% of the pilots have fake qualifications. Doing a great job to get the airline banned from landing anywhere in the Western hemisphere.
When you talk about ‘fake’, I think what is meant is that they didn’t achieve a standard of higher education (fake degree certificates) before embarking upon flying training be it civil or (ex) military.

I assume their civil written exams are equivalent to the FAA/EASA hoop jumping exercises. So the licences are genuine licences issued by their CAA although the qualifying requirements were not met.
Perhaps someone can confirm the actual process?
edit: Now updated news that the exams were written by ‘others’ as well. So licences revoked.

PIA were banned from EU airspace in March 2007 on safety grounds due to an old aircraft fleet, apart from their B.777s. A partial lifting occurred four months later, and the ban was eventually lifted in the November following a final EU safety audit.

Last edited by parkfell; 25th Jun 2020 at 13:34. Reason: Updated news: licences revoked
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 06:13
  #1353 (permalink)  
 
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This truly is an epic level of incompetence from start to finish. If PIA were not a state airline they would be very worried about their operating licence being taken away. There is however a tried and tested method for responding to these kind of situations as demonstrated with Korean. In their case flight operations expertise was parachuted in from Delta and the operating culture was addressed, with a marked improvement in safety. Imran Khan is a smart (Oxford educated) leader. I am sure someone will point him in the right direction. They have some links to Air Canada for example so maybe that would be somewhere to look for help. The Pakistan cricket team (Imran was one of their greatest players) has had foreign coaches so the concept should be familiar.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 06:37
  #1354 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by ferry pilot View Post
You have to wonder if this was not the first rodeo for this crew. The only way anyone could be
“ comfortable” in those circumstances would be from experience you don’t get by straightening up and flying right. There may be much more to this story than what is on those recorders.
This is, I think, an important observation - for at least one of the flight crew it seems that this approach appeared 'doable'. How did he (or they) arrive at that conclusion?

ATC were aware of abnormalities - was their intervention also routine, something that happens every day?
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 07:12
  #1355 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50 View Post
Question for those who fly the A320.
I note this.
They were likely startled by the loss of the engines, and they did not have much altitude to play with. (Much earlier in the thread we see a video clip as the plane goes down, with the nose up and wheels down as they reached the tragic end).
My question: with the gear up (in other words, had they left the gear up for longer once the engines were done) was there any chance that the aircraft would have reached the field rather than coming down in the residential area "1340 meters short from frunway 25L"?
(Yes, I do realize that landing on the engines with the wheels up poses other risks, and I am not sure how long it takes a startled crew to get the wheels down with most of the systems gone off line).

Ever since Sully's landing in the Hudson River I would hope that, now and again, crews are tested in the sims against a loss of both engines not too far from the ground (a few thousand feet) to see what the plane does and how far it can "stretch" with the engines gone.
Yes, that's the old training officer in me thinking through crew training. I ask because I don't know what gets thrown at A320 crews during sim sessions, and what the general feel is on how far one can 'stretch' a dead engines glide before one must commit to putting it down.

EDIT: I see a comment from 1549 thread that but I don't think you get all that unless you are going straight in. I think they had to turn back, or turn some amount, to get there once the engines stopped, since they were heading back for another approach ...
Can I repeat an earlier question? We will lack FDR data for the last couple of minutes of the flight. Are we likely to therefore lack any useful / important data for the investigation, and for recommendations? For example, we will lack precise data on whether that final glide could have been handled differently, with a somewhat different outcome. Yes, unlikely, I know......
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 07:21
  #1356 (permalink)  
 
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This really has me thinking the answer may be something right out of the box.

Surely no crew could be this incompetent?

Fumes event with both pilots affected?
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 08:28
  #1357 (permalink)  
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These pilots were either drunk, or;

This flying culture is so ingrained at PIA that both of them were completely comfortable with it (as they actually stated), and had got away with such behaviour on a regular basis in the past. From which you can probably deduce that other pilots at PIA behave in a similar fashion, on a regular basis.

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Old 25th Jun 2020, 09:12
  #1358 (permalink)  
 
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Sorry, I chose to remove my contribution to this site.

Last edited by Ray_Y; 7th Jul 2020 at 17:29.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 09:13
  #1359 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Banana Joe View Post
Is it not possible to take over and lock out the other pilot's sidestick by holding the red AP disconnect button on the sidestick?
Until they push the AP disconnect button on their side-stick and then you're locked out.
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Old 25th Jun 2020, 09:23
  #1360 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Check Airman View Post
I'm guessing it's one of these.

ENG 1(2) REV SWITCH FAULT
ENG 1(2) REVERSER FAULT
I think it's the last one, but would have to look at it. Anyways as the next post to this quote says, together with overspeeds, gpws and configuration/gear alarms that cabin must have been pretty noisy.
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