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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

Old 3rd Jun 2020, 02:05
  #1001 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by lomapaseo View Post
Thanks. It would seem that kind of system must be fast enough to protect if it goes too far. I guess so far in the grainy photos of this event there doesn't seem to be a big enough gap viewable to set off a large effect on the FADEC. However as always I'm never sure about the pedigree of in-serevice older planes in their upgrade history. Of course I'm still wondering about the degree and timing of any loss of thrust in this event since they ran out of options on the last approach
I don't know about the CFM56-5, but the GE engines I worked, the FADEC had a "major frame" of between 200ms and 240ms - i.e. it cycled through all the engine control functions every 200ms. So less than a quarter second reaction time (of course it takes time for the engine to react - which is what killed Lauda - the FADEC pulled back fuel flow when the T/R deployed, but by the time the engine spooled down from Max Climb they'd already lost control of the aircraft).
Many pages back, someone posted a photo of the CFM56-5 gearbox installation. Looking at that, I postulated it's quite likely that when they did the gear-up landing, the gearbox hit the tarmac hard enough to fracture the gearbox housing - and losing nearly all the engine oil. After that it was only a matter of time. Obviously the impact didn't destroy the gearbox, since that would have failed the fuel pump and the engines would have stopped almost instantly.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 02:08
  #1002 (permalink)  
 
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I noted among all the pictures (this event or otherwise) that landing on the engines tends to at least partially deploy the engine reverser sleeves.
Seems to me ground contact has occasionally deployed bucket-type reversers. This caused some extra work in (I think?) the SpanAir or 727/Dallas no-flaps-TO investigations - until grass stains, ingested earth, and/or witness marks demonstrated the reversers were forced open by ground drag, and thus a result, not a cause, of those accidents.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 03:31
  #1003 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Airbubba View Post
Here's a report from ARY News:
On another forum it was claimed that Captain Gul was the senior pilot at PIA.
Captain Gul was a very experienced pilot. He is claimed to be the only (or amongst a few) with more than 1000hrs/yr experience. In my experience, it is very dangerous in a place like Pakistan when you pair such a person with a young FO. The same was the case with AirBlue and (now defunct) Bhoja previously.

There's was an article published by his daughter in a local paper. It's mostly how great and helpful her dad. I can understand the pressure the family is going through since the media is portraying the crew with suspicion. But in the flow, she also wrote how he would call his junior colleagues "Beta" or "Beti" (son or daughter). That might sound very affectionate and caring which she wrote to emphasize how good her father was, but it also means imposing your seniority on your colleague. No "beta" or "beti" would dare challenge your actions even when you mess up due to the atmosphere in the cockpit. We saw similar reasons in previous air crashes in Islamabad where FO would only give a slight suggestion in a weak voice to his "senior" captain (addressing him as sir) even when faced with imminent doom.

There are lots of factors at PIA that make senior pilots particularly dangerous even though they have so much experience.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 03:43
  #1004 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fawad View Post
There's was an article published by his daughter in a local paper. It's mostly how great and helpful her dad. I can understand the pressure the family is going through since the media is portraying the crew with suspicion. But in the flow, she also wrote how he would call his junior colleagues "Beta" or "Beti" (son or daughter). That might sound very affectionate and caring which she wrote to emphasize how good her father was, but it also means imposing your seniority on your colleague. No "beta" or "beti" would dare challenge your actions even when you mess up due to the atmosphere in the cockpit. We saw similar reasons in previous air crashes in Islamabad where FO would only give a slight suggestion in a weak voice to his "senior" captain (addressing him as sir) even when faced with imminent doom.

There are lots of factors at PIA that make senior pilots particularly dangerous even though they have so much experience.
Fawad I presume you are fluent in Urdu. Is there anything in this interview with Usman Azam's brother that might give the FO's experience level with the A320? Thanks.

You will have to click on the 'Watch this video on YouTube' link that comes up when you try to play it here.


Last edited by Airbubba; 3rd Jun 2020 at 04:15.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 05:05
  #1005 (permalink)  
 
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Nothing much in that interview. Amongst a lot of traditional rhetoric (he is a martyr, he would help anyone, so caring, charitable, etc.), we get the following:
- He came from a very humble background. Both his parents are ill. He was quite religious and would often go for preaching too. Would never gain an undue advantage due to his job, etc.
- He was 33, unmarried, and joined PIA around 2011-12.
- First was qualification, completing hours, etc. The total time flying has been around 7 years. For the first 3-4 years, he flew only domestic. Later 3-4 years, he started international flights.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 05:07
  #1006 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks Fawad, I appreciate it.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 05:12
  #1007 (permalink)  
 
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The ATC report semi covers only themselves, carefully avoiding any mention as to whether they also observed gear or touchdown of any kind.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 05:21
  #1008 (permalink)  
 
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@Airbubba
you might want to browse this pakistani forum for more info.
https://historyofpia.com/forums/view...6965&start=450
Any news that comes out will surface here first. I just read that the data on the dfdr and cvr have successfully been downloaded.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 05:33
  #1009 (permalink)  
 
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Is there anything in this interview with Usman Azam's brother that might give the FO's experience level with the A320? Thanks.
Airbubba
People of these parts tend to be emotional and interviews with the relatives of people who died doesn't help in aircaft investigation. In this interview the interviewer and the brother of the copilot are considering the crew as martyrs with sense of pride. The discussion is on his personal grief and how perfect he was in practice of his faith and as a human being. Except that he was flying for 6 to 7 years for PIA there is nothing about aviation.

Last edited by vilas; 3rd Jun 2020 at 08:00.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 06:44
  #1010 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by fox niner View Post
@Airbubba
you might want to browse this pakistani forum for more info.
https://historyofpia.com/forums/view...6965&start=450
Thanks for the lead, some good reading.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 07:07
  #1011 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by vilas View Post
Airbubba
People of these parts tend to be emotional and interviews with the relatives of the diseased doesn't help in aircaft investigation. In this interview the interviewer and the brother of the copilot are considering the crew as martyrs with sense of pride.
I'm not sure I would call these folks diseased even though there is a pandemic. I suspect the autocorrect let you down.

I've certainly operated into LHE and KHI a few times and I have a little insight into the culture. Fawad came up with some information from the interview about how long Uzman Azam had been at PIA. After flying the line for seven years he would certainly be experienced enough to know you don't cross the numbers at 210 knots even with a senior captain.

I'm thinking that in some of the early local media coverage there was some discussion of what aircraft the FO had flown and how many hours he had. But, I can't seem to find it at the moment. Anyway, there should be a preliminary report out soon.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 07:58
  #1012 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Airbubba View Post
I'm not sure I would call these folks diseased even though there is a pandemic. I suspect the autocorrect let you down.

I've certainly operated into LHE and KHI a few times and I have a little insight into the culture. Fawad came up with some information from the interview about how long Uzman Azam had been at PIA. After flying the line for seven years he would certainly be experienced enough to know you don't cross the numbers at 210 knots even with a senior captain.

I'm thinking that in some of the early local media coverage there was some discussion of what aircraft the FO had flown and how many hours he had. But, I can't seem to find it at the moment. Anyway, there should be a preliminary report out soon.
I will correct that
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 08:23
  #1013 (permalink)  
 
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Airbubba
There's very serious and damning evidence is being put out on Pakistani media channels. Especially four videos by one particular journalist in which he has produced evidence of nepotism and corruption in the CAA, PIA and culpability of PALPA the pilot's Union. He has challenged these organizations and has threatened take legal action. But these videos are not in English. If what he says is true it makes a horrifying picture.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 09:32
  #1014 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by vilas View Post
Airbubba
There's very serious and damning evidence is being put out on Pakistani media channels. Especially four videos by one particular journalist in which he has produced evidence of nepotism and corruption in the CAA, PIA and culpability of PALPA the pilot's Union. He has challenged these organizations and has threatened take legal action. But these videos are not in English. If what he says is true it makes a horrifying picture.
Not sure which journalist or report you're talking about, but I can assure you it's probably just tip of the iceberg. Most corruption is done so elegantly, you wouldn't find a paper trace. I can tell you this much with certainty, there is nepotism, political and ethnic appointments, corruption, negligence, and incompetence. Don't forget its the same airline that was caught a few years ago having multiple pilots with fake degrees and/or fake licenses. PALPA, the pilots union mafia, was quick to the rescue to avoid others being scrutinized. I have/had 3 close relatives in PIA in different departments to know quite well how things work. Thankfully, 2 of them left (for greener pastures) because they were professionals.

I mentioned earlier in one of my posts that there are "several issues" at PIA but chose not to go into details. It would give a general state of affairs but not particularly helpful in this scenario.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 09:45
  #1015 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fawad View Post
Not sure which journalist or report you're talking about, but I can assure you it's probably just tip of the iceberg. Most corruption is done so elegantly, you wouldn't find a paper trace. I can tell you this much with certainty, there is nepotism, political and ethnic appointments, corruption, negligence, and incompetence. Don't forget its the same airline that was caught a few years ago having multiple pilots with fake degrees and/or fake licenses. PALPA, the pilots union mafia, was quick to the rescue to avoid others being scrutinized. I have/had 3 close relatives in PIA in different departments to know quite well how things work. Thankfully, 2 of them left (for greener pastures) because they were professionals.

I mentioned earlier in one of my posts that there are "several issues" at PIA but chose not to go into details. It would give a general state of affairs but not particularly helpful in this scenario.
Genuine question from a genuine pilot.
Is this only in Pakistan or do these things creep over the border to the East?
Feel free to PM me or public forum here is also fine.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 13:07
  #1016 (permalink)  
 
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Fawad
After the crash of PK 8303 he has made at least four videos.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 16:17
  #1017 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Airbubba View Post
The warnings cancelled, they missed lunch, they were tired, they hadn't flown lately and forgot to be stable at 1000 feet, KHI is their home base and they were over confident, society failed them etc. I predict that the litany of excuses will become ever more convoluted as the search for answers continues.
How on earth can you forget to be stable at 1000ft ??
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 16:18
  #1018 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by srjumbo747 View Post
Genuine question from a genuine pilot.
Is this only in Pakistan or do these things creep over the border to the East?
If you're asking about fake licenses in India, it's just like their driving licenses, they pay a bribe to get them in many cases. Fraud is rampant from what my friends over there say.

Some years ago there was someone that the Indian press called a 'lady airline pilot' who kept landing on the nosewheel. When it turned out that she had a phony license a scandal ensued. Drunk pilots and phony licenses appear to be far more common in places like India than in the U.S. Well, phony licenses anyway.

Fake pilots: Aviation official arrested in India license scam

Originally published March 26, 2011 at 5:27 pm Updated March 26, 2011 at 7:31 pm

A government aviation official and three other people have been arrested in a widening investigation of corruption in awarding flying licenses to airline pilots, police said Saturday.

By
The Associated Press

NEW DELHI, India — A government aviation official and three other people have been arrested in a widening investigation of corruption in awarding flying licenses to airline pilots, police said Saturday.

The four men were arrested Friday in New Delhi for their involvement with a flying school in the western Indian state of Rajasthan that had issued fake certificates for training flights flown by its students, police spokesman Rajan Bhagat said.

The scandal hitting India’s airline sector emerged when a pilot working for a budget airline damaged an Airbus 320 aircraft while landing last month.

An examination of her papers showed she had used fake documents to get her pilot license.

Investigations since then have revealed at least one unlicensed flying school, unscrupulous officials, and touts who helped underqualified candidates obtain licenses and jobs flying passenger planes for various airlines.

The director general of civil aviation, E.K. Bharat Bhushan, said the records of all 40 flying schools in the country would be checked.

“We will take the strongest possible action if such malpractice becomes known,” Bhushan said.

Indian authorities have arrested four airline pilots with fake certificates in the past two weeks.

On Friday, aviation authorities canceled the licenses of 15 commercial pilots for exaggerating their flying time while training.

Officials have been ordered to check the documents of all Indian and foreign airline pilots working in the country.
Investigators found that students who failed final examinations or falsified their hours of flight training were able to obtain fake certificates and aviation licenses.


PPRuNe thread on the fakers: Fakers, fakers everywhere!


DGCA finds fault with IndiGo pilot's landing technique

IndiGo pilot Parminder Kaur Gulati has been landing aircraft on its on its fragile nose wheel, posing a threat to passengers.

Ajmer Singh New Delhi

February 14, 2011 UPDATED: February 14, 2011 09:32 IST

In January 11, when IndiGo Airlines' flight 6E 333 had a bumpy touchdown at Goa International Airport, it was a close brush with disaster for over 100 passengers aboard the A 320. The woman pilot in command landed the plane on its fragile nose wheel - an erroneous manoeuvre that could have even led to the flying machine disintegrating and catching fire.

Alarmingly, an inquiry conducted later by the Director General of Civil Aviation (DGCA) revealed that on 15 to 20 earlier occasions, Captain Parminder Kaur Gulati landed the aircraft at an angle indicating that the nose wheel may have touched the tarmac first. This is unheard of in aviation circles.Aircraft normally land on the main landing gear (MLG), comprising the two sets of rear wheels. After these bigger - and sturdier - wheels touch the runway, the speed of the plane is reduced. This is followed by the already opened nose landing gear (NLG) - the smaller front wheel just below the cockpit of the aircraft - coming in contact with the surface.

Flight 6E 333 took off from Indira Gandhi International Airport in Delhi and was bound for Goa.

Abhas Gupta was Gulati's copilot aboard the aircraft.

Captain Gulati appeared to have been so oblivious to the abnormal and highly risky touchdown at the Goa International Airport that she just reported the incident as a "rough landing". Not only did the steep descent leave the passengers' hearts in their mouths, it went against the recommendations of aircraft manufacturer Airbus, too.

This was not the end of the matter.

After the rough landing in Goa, Gulati and the engineer concerned merely carried out a inspection of the aircraft and reported that everything was normal.

The airbus was, therefore, cleared to fly back to Delhi.

The Indigo flight 6E 332 - with passengers on board - started its return journey to Delhi. But midway through, the plane's electronic systems signalled a problem in the landing gear. The warning related to the nose undercarriage being internally damaged.

The electronic signal that flashed in the cockpit showed that the landing gear didn't retract because it was stuck in the "down position". The Indigo aircraft had to then return to Goa to offload the passengers.

Later, it took off from Goa without the passengers and landed at IGI Airport.

The combined probe carried out by the DGCA, Airbus and IndiGo confirmed that the aircraft had landed on the NLG first, followed by the MLG. "This is a non-conventional landing," the report accessed by MAIL TODAY said.

Gulati's flying history came under the scanner of the investigators.

An analysis of the digital flight data recorder (DFDR) of the aircraft she previously flew pointed out that in her 15-20 earlier landings the 'touchdown attitude' was 3.8 degrees, which went against the recommended attitude of 5.8 degrees. Though within the safety zone, this increased the chances of the nose wheel touching first, the report stated.

The standard glide angle followed by an aircraft during descent is 3 degrees and the nose of the aircraft should be at 2.5 degrees at the horizon level. Just before touchdown, the latter is increased to 5 degrees. However, in the IndiGo flight's case, the pilot gave a negative pitch attitude and reduced the angle to 3.8 degrees resulting in the aircraft landing on the NLG. The report disclosed that the auto pilot was disconnected at 311 feet above ground level. At 100 feet, the captain gave a pitch-up command to ensure that the MLG touched the runway first. "At the last moment (around 10-20 feet), the captain gave a nose-down input. This resulted in a negative pitch attitude during touchdown," the document revealed.

The regulator (DGCA) and the investigation board recommended that the pilot should be sent on correctional training.

IndiGo CEO Aditya Ghosh admitted that the pilot had landed the aircraft on its nose wheel. He further claimed that all the recommendations made by IndiGo pertaining to the incident had been accepted by the DGCA. "Indigo conducted an investigation and the inquiry board recommended that the captain should be sent on training to correct her landing technique. She was also advised to undertake a cockpit resource management refresher course as well as a route check. She has already undergone these procedures," Ghosh said. Significantly, the lady captain has earlier been counselled for a serious error in the go-around approach during a landing at the IGI Airport.

Commenting on the incident, aviation expert Captain A. Ranganathan said: "The nose wheel can't take the impact of landing. The pilot's landing on the plane's nose could have led to serious consequences. The episode shows there was a deficiency in training." Former DGCA Kanu Gohain also felt that it was a very serious incident since the NLG is the weakest part of the aircraft and not designed to handle its landing weight. For the passengers, it was nothing less than a miraculous escape.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 17:14
  #1019 (permalink)  
 
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I can’ t post the YouTube link, but’s easy to find: just search Captain Mayday, PK 8303. It’s a comprehensive summary of what we know so far, waiting for CVR and FDR readouts, which won’t take long. Quite recommendable !
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 17:39
  #1020 (permalink)  
 
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It appears (from family interviews) that pilots were fasting.

There are also claims from multiple media sources that the Captain had been rejected previously by the airline Psychiatrist as "not fit for duty". The captain went outside of the country and brought a different psychiatrist result instead.
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