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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

Old 2nd Jun 2020, 22:00
  #1001 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by lomapaseo View Post
OK I have a question (not a postulation of what did happen)

I noted among all the pictures (this event or otherwise) that landing on the engines tends to at least partially deploy the engine reverser sleeves.

Assuming the sliding forces are large enough t oat least result in an "unlocked state) would this send a signal to the engine FADEC to retard the engine presuming that the gear was not down?

This of course may be in-service model specific
Loma, first off I'd be surprised if the reverser moved much - there are locking actuators that shouldn't unlock in the absence of hydraulic pressure. The stowed prox sensors may go 'target far', but the actual reverser movement would be small.
Now, on Boeing, it takes more than 'unlocked' for a thrust cutback - the thrust cutback is based on the FADEC sensed actual reverser position (there is some special logic that comes into play if the sensed position is different between the channels). Typically nothing happens until the reverser is more than 10% from the commanded position. For example, if closed is 0%, thrust cutback will start at 10% and limited to idle at 15% - same thing at the other end between 85% and 90% deployed.
Now, as noted, that's how the Boeing installation works, but I'd be a bit surprised if Airbus is much different.
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Old 2nd Jun 2020, 22:02
  #1002 (permalink)  
 
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Has the crew experience and recency been published yet ?
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Old 2nd Jun 2020, 23:18
  #1003 (permalink)  
 
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kit: No interim report so far, so one would not expect that detail to be released until then.
Whether or not it has been leaked someone else might know.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 00:20
  #1004 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by kit344 View Post
Has the crew experience and recency been published yet ?
​​​​​
Here's a report from ARY News:




The Aircraft Accident and Investigation Team while investigating various aspects of the air crash, has demanded overall flying record of Captain Sajjad Gul from the Chief Pilot Safety of the Pakistan International Airlines (PIA).

The probe team has inquired about the flying routes of the pilot and also asked about the details of the log book and whether the Captain was observing fast during the flight.

The inquiry team has also asked questions about a Lahore to Karachi flight two days ago, inquiring whether the same pilot had operated a flight on the route two days ago on May 20, sources said. The issue of purported flying fatigue of the pilot also being inquired about, according to sources.

Earlier, Captain Sajjad Gul’s father in a media briefing said that his son had logged in 17,000 hours. He was the only pilot to have completed 1,000 hours in a year and a thorough professional, said the aggrieved father.
On another forum it was claimed that Captain Gul was the senior pilot at PIA. However, often with translations, transliterations, typos and second hand information these primacy claims are often misstated in my observation.

The phrase 'Gul was senior pilot at PIA' might be 'corrected' different ways for example.

The first officer was Usman Azam. I remember reading somewhere, maybe here, that he had thousands of hours but not a lot of time on the A320. Whether this was true or speculation anybody know?
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 01:12
  #1005 (permalink)  
 
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I have seen that there are interviews on YouTube with relatives of both the Captain and FO
There don't appear to be any English subtitles or captions available. There is also a Facebook account for Usman Azam
A recent search on both their names reveals plenty of local news reports, but it's difficult to filter facts from speculation, without knowing the profiles of local news organisations.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 01:48
  #1006 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
Loma, first off I'd be surprised if the reverser moved much - there are locking actuators that shouldn't unlock in the absence of hydraulic pressure. The stowed prox sensors may go 'target far', but the actual reverser movement would be small.
Now, on Boeing, it takes more than 'unlocked' for a thrust cutback - the thrust cutback is based on the FADEC sensed actual reverser position (there is some special logic that comes into play if the sensed position is different between the channels). Typically nothing happens until the reverser is more than 10% from the commanded position. For example, if closed is 0%, thrust cutback will start at 10% and limited to idle at 15% - same thing at the other end between 85% and 90% deployed.
Now, as noted, that's how the Boeing installation works, but I'd be a bit surprised if Airbus is much different.
Thanks. It would seem that kind of system must be fast enough to protect if it goes too far. I guess so far in the grainy photos of this event there doesn't seem to be a big enough gap viewable to set off a large effect on the FADEC. However as always I'm never sure about the pedigree of in-serevice older planes in their upgrade history. Of course I'm still wondering about the degree and timing of any loss of thrust in this event since they ran out of options on the last approach
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 02:05
  #1007 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by lomapaseo View Post
Thanks. It would seem that kind of system must be fast enough to protect if it goes too far. I guess so far in the grainy photos of this event there doesn't seem to be a big enough gap viewable to set off a large effect on the FADEC. However as always I'm never sure about the pedigree of in-serevice older planes in their upgrade history. Of course I'm still wondering about the degree and timing of any loss of thrust in this event since they ran out of options on the last approach
I don't know about the CFM56-5, but the GE engines I worked, the FADEC had a "major frame" of between 200ms and 240ms - i.e. it cycled through all the engine control functions every 200ms. So less than a quarter second reaction time (of course it takes time for the engine to react - which is what killed Lauda - the FADEC pulled back fuel flow when the T/R deployed, but by the time the engine spooled down from Max Climb they'd already lost control of the aircraft).
Many pages back, someone posted a photo of the CFM56-5 gearbox installation. Looking at that, I postulated it's quite likely that when they did the gear-up landing, the gearbox hit the tarmac hard enough to fracture the gearbox housing - and losing nearly all the engine oil. After that it was only a matter of time. Obviously the impact didn't destroy the gearbox, since that would have failed the fuel pump and the engines would have stopped almost instantly.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 02:08
  #1008 (permalink)  
 
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I noted among all the pictures (this event or otherwise) that landing on the engines tends to at least partially deploy the engine reverser sleeves.
Seems to me ground contact has occasionally deployed bucket-type reversers. This caused some extra work in (I think?) the SpanAir or 727/Dallas no-flaps-TO investigations - until grass stains, ingested earth, and/or witness marks demonstrated the reversers were forced open by ground drag, and thus a result, not a cause, of those accidents.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 03:31
  #1009 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Airbubba View Post
Here's a report from ARY News:
On another forum it was claimed that Captain Gul was the senior pilot at PIA.
Captain Gul was a very experienced pilot. He is claimed to be the only (or amongst a few) with more than 1000hrs/yr experience. In my experience, it is very dangerous in a place like Pakistan when you pair such a person with a young FO. The same was the case with AirBlue and (now defunct) Bhoja previously.

There's was an article published by his daughter in a local paper. It's mostly how great and helpful her dad. I can understand the pressure the family is going through since the media is portraying the crew with suspicion. But in the flow, she also wrote how he would call his junior colleagues "Beta" or "Beti" (son or daughter). That might sound very affectionate and caring which she wrote to emphasize how good her father was, but it also means imposing your seniority on your colleague. No "beta" or "beti" would dare challenge your actions even when you mess up due to the atmosphere in the cockpit. We saw similar reasons in previous air crashes in Islamabad where FO would only give a slight suggestion in a weak voice to his "senior" captain (addressing him as sir) even when faced with imminent doom.

There are lots of factors at PIA that make senior pilots particularly dangerous even though they have so much experience.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 03:43
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Originally Posted by Fawad View Post
There's was an article published by his daughter in a local paper. It's mostly how great and helpful her dad. I can understand the pressure the family is going through since the media is portraying the crew with suspicion. But in the flow, she also wrote how he would call his junior colleagues "Beta" or "Beti" (son or daughter). That might sound very affectionate and caring which she wrote to emphasize how good her father was, but it also means imposing your seniority on your colleague. No "beta" or "beti" would dare challenge your actions even when you mess up due to the atmosphere in the cockpit. We saw similar reasons in previous air crashes in Islamabad where FO would only give a slight suggestion in a weak voice to his "senior" captain (addressing him as sir) even when faced with imminent doom.

There are lots of factors at PIA that make senior pilots particularly dangerous even though they have so much experience.
Fawad I presume you are fluent in Urdu. Is there anything in this interview with Usman Azam's brother that might give the FO's experience level with the A320? Thanks.

You will have to click on the 'Watch this video on YouTube' link that comes up when you try to play it here.


Last edited by Airbubba; 3rd Jun 2020 at 04:15.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 05:05
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Nothing much in that interview. Amongst a lot of traditional rhetoric (he is a martyr, he would help anyone, so caring, charitable, etc.), we get the following:
- He came from a very humble background. Both his parents are ill. He was quite religious and would often go for preaching too. Would never gain an undue advantage due to his job, etc.
- He was 33, unmarried, and joined PIA around 2011-12.
- First was qualification, completing hours, etc. The total time flying has been around 7 years. For the first 3-4 years, he flew only domestic. Later 3-4 years, he started international flights.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 05:07
  #1012 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks Fawad, I appreciate it.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 05:12
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The ATC report semi covers only themselves, carefully avoiding any mention as to whether they also observed gear or touchdown of any kind.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 05:21
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@Airbubba
you might want to browse this pakistani forum for more info.
https://historyofpia.com/forums/view...6965&start=450
Any news that comes out will surface here first. I just read that the data on the dfdr and cvr have successfully been downloaded.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 05:33
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Is there anything in this interview with Usman Azam's brother that might give the FO's experience level with the A320? Thanks.
Airbubba
People of these parts tend to be emotional and interviews with the relatives of people who died doesn't help in aircaft investigation. In this interview the interviewer and the brother of the copilot are considering the crew as martyrs with sense of pride. The discussion is on his personal grief and how perfect he was in practice of his faith and as a human being. Except that he was flying for 6 to 7 years for PIA there is nothing about aviation.

Last edited by vilas; 3rd Jun 2020 at 08:00.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 06:44
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Originally Posted by fox niner View Post
@Airbubba
you might want to browse this pakistani forum for more info.
https://historyofpia.com/forums/view...6965&start=450
Thanks for the lead, some good reading.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 07:07
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Originally Posted by vilas View Post
Airbubba
People of these parts tend to be emotional and interviews with the relatives of the diseased doesn't help in aircaft investigation. In this interview the interviewer and the brother of the copilot are considering the crew as martyrs with sense of pride.
I'm not sure I would call these folks diseased even though there is a pandemic. I suspect the autocorrect let you down.

I've certainly operated into LHE and KHI a few times and I have a little insight into the culture. Fawad came up with some information from the interview about how long Uzman Azam had been at PIA. After flying the line for seven years he would certainly be experienced enough to know you don't cross the numbers at 210 knots even with a senior captain.

I'm thinking that in some of the early local media coverage there was some discussion of what aircraft the FO had flown and how many hours he had. But, I can't seem to find it at the moment. Anyway, there should be a preliminary report out soon.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 07:58
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Originally Posted by Airbubba View Post
I'm not sure I would call these folks diseased even though there is a pandemic. I suspect the autocorrect let you down.

I've certainly operated into LHE and KHI a few times and I have a little insight into the culture. Fawad came up with some information from the interview about how long Uzman Azam had been at PIA. After flying the line for seven years he would certainly be experienced enough to know you don't cross the numbers at 210 knots even with a senior captain.

I'm thinking that in some of the early local media coverage there was some discussion of what aircraft the FO had flown and how many hours he had. But, I can't seem to find it at the moment. Anyway, there should be a preliminary report out soon.
I will correct that
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 08:23
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Airbubba
There's very serious and damning evidence is being put out on Pakistani media channels. Especially four videos by one particular journalist in which he has produced evidence of nepotism and corruption in the CAA, PIA and culpability of PALPA the pilot's Union. He has challenged these organizations and has threatened take legal action. But these videos are not in English. If what he says is true it makes a horrifying picture.
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 09:32
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Originally Posted by vilas View Post
Airbubba
There's very serious and damning evidence is being put out on Pakistani media channels. Especially four videos by one particular journalist in which he has produced evidence of nepotism and corruption in the CAA, PIA and culpability of PALPA the pilot's Union. He has challenged these organizations and has threatened take legal action. But these videos are not in English. If what he says is true it makes a horrifying picture.
Not sure which journalist or report you're talking about, but I can assure you it's probably just tip of the iceberg. Most corruption is done so elegantly, you wouldn't find a paper trace. I can tell you this much with certainty, there is nepotism, political and ethnic appointments, corruption, negligence, and incompetence. Don't forget its the same airline that was caught a few years ago having multiple pilots with fake degrees and/or fake licenses. PALPA, the pilots union mafia, was quick to the rescue to avoid others being scrutinized. I have/had 3 close relatives in PIA in different departments to know quite well how things work. Thankfully, 2 of them left (for greener pastures) because they were professionals.

I mentioned earlier in one of my posts that there are "several issues" at PIA but chose not to go into details. It would give a general state of affairs but not particularly helpful in this scenario.
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