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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

Old 28th May 2020, 07:26
  #801 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
There was a photo published (can't remember where) of the FDR, showing all of the electronics (the cuboid bit) missing, but the memory unit (the cylindrical bit) intact, albeit battered. The latter is the only part that needs to survive, and I would fully expect that the data will be retrievable.
Here you go ...

permalink to #714 : PIA A320 Crash Karachi
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Old 28th May 2020, 08:02
  #802 (permalink)  
 
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Anyone who watched the 1970s BBC comedy "Are You Being Served" would recall the staff addressed each other as Mr/Mrs/Miss rather than christian names.

I note than in the BOAC video, there is no "Positive Climb" call, the Captain simply replies to the "V2" call with "Gear Up". As many of today's SOPs are the result of mistakes made in the past, I wonder what happened to cause the "Positive Climb" call to be introduced, i.e which airline pulled the wheels up too early on take off ?
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Old 28th May 2020, 08:14
  #803 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by krismiler View Post
You're not wrong there ! A relative of mine worked for BEA in those days as ground staff and said "Good morning" to a Captain as he walked past him in the corridor. Response was "People like you don't talk to people like me." Unbelievable these days, but 40-50 years ago things were different.
That video is a beautiful thing!
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Old 28th May 2020, 09:00
  #804 (permalink)  

de minimus non curat lex
 
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What can we reasonably conclude so far:

1. The approach was grossly UNSTABLE.

2. The crew believed the Gear was DOWN, otherwise they would have notified ATC there was an issue. Recycling the gear may have resolved the issue. If finally they couldn’t select the Gear down, then the emergency services would have been deployed and fully ready for them.
“Aircraft Accident Imminent” declared by ATC prior to the wheels up landing.

3. The crew finally realised on ground contact that the Gear was not down,
and performed a “touch and go”.

4. The crew failed to appreciate that certain critical components are located on the underside of the engine, which unfortunately resulted in loss of thrust/engine failure.

5. This dreadful accident will be rich in CRM. As the CVR has now been found and if fully published, it will add greatly to the understanding of the sequence of events, and the unfortunate mind sets of the pilots.

As one Old Hand once said to me:
“learn from other peoples mistakes, as you will not live long enough to make them all yourself”

BOAC video: absolutely wonderful

Last edited by parkfell; 28th May 2020 at 10:10. Reason: CVR found today
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Old 28th May 2020, 09:41
  #805 (permalink)  
 
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So on this first name / formalities:

As you might be aware the Dutch King Willem Alexander is also a pilot. He keeps current flying commercial flights (always incognito) and of course the Dutch Governmental plane.

A while ago in an interview it became apparent that when flying and mixing with the rest of the crew, he insist on being called Alex. No “your majesty” for him on the flight deck!

Jeroen

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Old 28th May 2020, 10:00
  #806 (permalink)  
 
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CVR was recovered today!

https://arynews.tv/en/investigators-...rder-pia-pane/

skadi
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Old 28th May 2020, 10:15
  #807 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by skadi View Post
CVR was recovered today!


skadi
"The PIA officials handed over the cockpit voice recorder of the ill-fated Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) flight PK-8303 to Aircraft Accident Investigation Board, he said."

What a mess, in which other country is the airline leading the search for recorders ?

"The Airbus experts will take the aircraft’s black box, which contains the flight data recorder and the cockpit voice recorder, and any other evidence that would help with the investigation."

Everything is setup for conspirationnists for years ... First airline search for CVR then handle it to manufacturer. At the end, everybody will be unhappy for a reason, and happy for another one.


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Old 28th May 2020, 10:56
  #808 (permalink)  
 
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Gear drag

Originally Posted by Fursty Ferret View Post
Perfectly normal. Gear often dropped early when intercepting the final approach with a tailwind, for example. It's most useful at about 200kts - the gear doors provide significant short term drag and can be what you need to get flap 2 out. I wouldn't consider using it from 10,000 ft because the speed brakes are more effective at higher speeds. The noise in the cabin is astronomical if you drop them anywhere close to the limiting speed.

Neither of the videos shown above seem plausible to me.
Does anyone remember the 'High level Jet Penetration' approach at Frankfurt in the '70s? Over the VOR at F/L100, outbound on a radial for a teardrop to R/W25. Flying 1-11s we slowed down approaching the VOR because the gear doors were the limiting factor and once the gear was down and the doors closed again we speeded up. I think the track distance was about 18 miles and it was no problem but I may be wrong about the distance.
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Old 28th May 2020, 11:31
  #809 (permalink)  
 
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Airbus have said that the BEA have the CVR / FDR
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Old 28th May 2020, 11:31
  #810 (permalink)  
 
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Huh? Still looking for the CVR... hmmmmm
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Old 28th May 2020, 11:34
  #811 (permalink)  
 
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CVR has been recovered
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Old 28th May 2020, 11:58
  #812 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by nickp View Post
Does anyone remember the 'High level Jet Penetration' approach at Frankfurt in the '70s? Over the VOR at F/L100, outbound on a radial for a teardrop to R/W25. Flying 1-11s we slowed down approaching the VOR because the gear doors were the limiting factor and once the gear was down and the doors closed again we speeded up. I think the track distance was about 18 miles and it was no problem but I may be wrong about the distance.
The U.S. has those wherever jet fighters are based, civilian or military bases.
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Old 28th May 2020, 12:39
  #813 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by inducedrag View Post
CVR has been recovered
Earlier it was stated that they found only the Case. I think at the time they may have found the ATR rack mounting, and the CVR had been thrown free.
Here it is now after being retrieved.



Last edited by Milvus Milvus; 28th May 2020 at 13:12. Reason: info
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Old 28th May 2020, 13:00
  #814 (permalink)  
 
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It is now confirmed that both accident recorders – FDR and CVR - have been recovered
from the accident site.

They are expected to be read-out sometime next week at BEA facilities in Paris Le Bourget,
France under the leadership of the Pakistan AAIB with participation from Airbus and PIA.

In line with ICAO annex 13 rules, Airbus is continuing to provide full technical assistance to
the BEA and to the Pakistan AAIB who leads the investigation.
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Old 28th May 2020, 13:09
  #815 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TriStar_drvr View Post
This accident appears to have some similarities to the US Bangla crash in Kathmandu a couple years ago. A Captain seems to get tunnel vision, is determined to get on the runway, and ignores multiple aircraft warning systems including a gear unsafe warning, eventually driving the aircraft onto the runway in no position to make a normal landing. In the US Bangla crash the Captain also ignored the First Officers commands to go around. Perhaps the same in this one too, to be determined once the voice recorder is recovered.
Also Garuda 200 in terms of an unstable approach and ignoring warnings. The gear was down for that one though
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Old 28th May 2020, 13:23
  #816 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by EDLB View Post
If you can not get a serviceable A320 in CAVOC conditions, on a 11000 feet runway at sea level down in one piece, you should be nowhere near row 0. There are lots of ways to land a A320 even in a nonstandard cowboy style way
They DID land. Twice.

Originally Posted by EDLB View Post
ATC performance was good in this case. What can they do? The responsibility is with the pilots and they got all help from ATC.
You wouldn't happen to be ATC would you? Have you ever landed at OPKC or dealt with their ATC? If not maybe best not to comment.

Originally Posted by EDLB View Post
Any 100h FO should and will make a better job than this one. If you can not get a serviceable A320 in CAVOC conditions
Any 100h FO also knows it's "CAVOK".
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Old 28th May 2020, 14:34
  #817 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by reptile View Post
It is now confirmed that both accident recorders – FDR and CVR - have been recovered
from the accident site.

They are expected to be read-out sometime next week at BEA facilities in Paris Le Bourget,
France under the leadership of the Pakistan AAIB with participation from Airbus and PIA.

In line with ICAO annex 13 rules, Airbus is continuing to provide full technical assistance to
the BEA and to the Pakistan AAIB who leads the investigation.

And now posted on AvHerald:

"On May 28th 2020 the BEA tweeted the CVR data module was recovered today. Pakistan‘s CAA requested the BEA to read out the black boxes.

On May 28th 2020 local sources reported the data module of the CVR was found underneath parts of the wreckage while the wreckage was being removed from the crash site. Pakistan's Aviation Minister announced a preliminary report will be released on Jun 22nd 2020. 51 bodies have been identified so far. The French BEA is going to take FDR and CVR to France for repair, download and analysis."

Crash: PIA A320 at Karachi on May 22nd 2020, impacted residential area during final approach, both engines failed as result of a gear up touchdown
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Old 28th May 2020, 14:39
  #818 (permalink)  
 
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BEA tweets about the recovery of the recorders. The gentleman holding the CVR appears to be wearing a BEA identification card and nomex flight gloves.




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Old 28th May 2020, 14:48
  #819 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by nickp View Post
Does anyone remember the 'High level Jet Penetration' approach at Frankfurt in the '70s?.
NIckP - Off topic but yes I do remember it, not least because on one occasion in the hold with at least two others above us and below, waiting for fog to lift we had an ATC voice which just said "F104 - over Charlie - abandoned...." Couple of minutes of silence with fingers firmly crossed..... never heard anything more, Luftwaffe had a lot of widowmakers. Back to topic
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Old 28th May 2020, 15:05
  #820 (permalink)  
 
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Example of rolling out on your 2 engine nacelles.

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