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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

Old 26th May 2020, 14:50
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Originally Posted by Joejosh999
You do have to wonder, if they’d tear dropped, and/or left the gear up, might they have gotten down more or less in one piece.
A teardrop maneuver might have been the ticket to a possible survival in this case. Gear up is a good question. Dpends also when they did extend it. If it was down during the whole circuit it could have made a difference same as config and speed. Best glide speed clean vs. flaps 3 and gear down at 150kts will lead to a significant change in glide ratio. But that is a moot point. Don't smash the donks in the first place. Otherwise you're purely down to luck and minute details which could be easily figured out in hindisght from the comfort of your armchair...
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Old 26th May 2020, 15:11
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Based on this video and we don't know how representative it is, FLAPS 3 was used for the approach and TOGA/GA TRACK only appears at around 500' during the climb out.
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Old 26th May 2020, 15:14
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No one with any airline experience needs an altimeter with needles to tell them they are way out of the groove if they are at 5nm at 3500ft. Given that it appears they were at 210kts or so, even throwing an orbit would have left them hard pressed. Maybe a subtle incapacitation, but what of PM.
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Old 26th May 2020, 15:26
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Originally Posted by Joejosh999
You do have to wonder, if they’d tear dropped, and/or left the gear up, might they have gotten down more or less in one piece.
Or carried on 3 more miles to the PAF base on the same heading!
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Old 26th May 2020, 15:35
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Originally Posted by double_barrel
What do you guys think is the significance of the exchange during the 1st approach.where they say they are established on the localizer for 25L, ATC says 'turn left heading 280', they then repeat that they are established on the localizer with no further comment from ATC ? If they were truly on the localizer and flying 250, then 280 would require a right turn. This seems odd.
If you listen closely, ATC actually says turn left heading 180. The 280 in the text is not correct.
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Old 26th May 2020, 15:51
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Has anyone analysed previous approaches to this aerodrome by PIA flights on Flight radar 24 ? Perhaps it may show that the airline is quite accepting of un stabilised / super steep approaches ?
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Old 26th May 2020, 15:55
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Originally Posted by Rapid D
If you listen closely, ATC actually says turn left heading 180. The 280 in the text is not correct.
ATC was trying to vector them to give space as they were high. But they said they are already established. It could be a case of false glideslope because while ATC was very uncomfortable with their position pilots were totally at ease. Similar thing happened in AI Express crash at Mangalore India.
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Old 26th May 2020, 16:05
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Originally Posted by procede
It could be that le Bourget was not open for an aircraft this size, due to limited firefighting capacity. They'll probably now transport the CVR and FDR by road.
Sounds plausible. Could it be one of those paperwork problems discovered enroute? Maybe the A358 is a new type and not yet listed in some document authorizing the operations at LFPG. Did they book this as a test flight TLS-KHI-TLS and weren't able to get the change of destination signed off in time?
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Old 26th May 2020, 16:08
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Originally Posted by RudderTrimZero
I'm not completely sure that the logic for overspeed has priority over the LDG GEAR warning. May be someone can chime in for that one?
Is the pun about the aural warning intentional?
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Old 26th May 2020, 16:15
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Originally Posted by vilas
ATC was trying to vector them to give space as they were high. But they said they are already established. It could be a case of false glideslope because while ATC was very uncomfortable with their position pilots were totally at ease. Similar thing happened in AI Express crash at Mangalore India.
I understand and agree with you. I was replying to the comment that on an approach to RWY 25, a turn to 280 would be a right turn. ATC actually said "turn left to heading 180". Whoever wrote the text on the video got it wrong and wrote 280.

That being said, a significant turn like that after already having given approach clearance if just bizarre. Why didn't ATC just cancel approach clearance if they were (rightly so) concerned about the safety of continuing this approach?
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Old 26th May 2020, 16:36
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Similarities AIE Mangalore & PIA Karachi.

Originally Posted by vilas
ATC was trying to vector them to give space as they were high. But they said they are already established. It could be a case of false glideslope because while ATC was very uncomfortable with their position pilots were totally at ease. Similar thing happened in AI Express crash at Mangalore India.
There are some similarities wrt unstabilised approaches in both , but the aircraft was fully configured although way too fast triggering flap load relief and touchdown was more than half way down the runway on the gear in the AIE case .
Both these cases , the pilots seem to be out of the loop and decide to go around after the initial touchdown which in hindsight seems to have more of an effect on the lives lost ironically..
Also , the CVR in AIE showed the copilot announcing go-around but the captain continued and the copilot did not assert himself , the DGCA eventually came out with a circular on subtle incapacitation and the mangalore crash is often cited in CRM and pilot training modules at Indian carriers .

Let’s wait for the CVR/FDR data and investigation reports to get the HF info on the PIA crash . Sad day for aviation .
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Old 26th May 2020, 17:01
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Originally Posted by vilas
ATC was trying to vector them to give space as they were high. But they said they are already established. It could be a case of false glideslope because while ATC was very uncomfortable with their position pilots were totally at ease. Similar thing happened in AI Express crash at Mangalore India.
Vilas,

Below is a link to an article, “Pitch-up Upsets due to ILS False Glide Slope.” Conducted by the Dutch safety Board.

IMC I could see a false 6 or 9 degree capture going unnoticed for a short period but VMC probably not.

regards,


https://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/med...nteractief.pdf




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Old 26th May 2020, 17:28
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Originally Posted by RudderTrimZero
A very amateurish attempt at recreating the approach
For which they have wisely disabled comments.
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Old 26th May 2020, 17:34
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If you're high and fast 'gear is your friend" when you're trying to manage your total energy from a 'too much' to a normal energy profile. Going 'downhill' at 210 kts, along with being high on the glideslope, the plane will not slow down, or at least not quickly, without gear.
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Old 26th May 2020, 17:56
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Without speculation where is the shared knowledge, the brainstorming, the "I never in the world would have thought of that", the fodder for some crazy movie? Would not one expect that engineers designing the next generation would be reading all of the speculative ideas which then might enter the FMEAs of the next gen? The master button that will light up indicating the airplane thinks you are doing something stupid, are you sure you want to do this knowing that I (the plane) think your actions may cause a crash? Press here to continue your foolish action for which you assume total responsibility.
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Old 26th May 2020, 18:10
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Originally Posted by NWA SLF
Without speculation where is the shared knowledge, the brainstorming, the "I never in the world would have thought of that", the fodder for some crazy movie? Would not one expect that engineers designing the next generation would be reading all of the speculative ideas which then might enter the FMEAs of the next gen? The master button that will light up indicating the airplane thinks you are doing something stupid, are you sure you want to do this knowing that I (the plane) think your actions may cause a crash? Press here to continue your foolish action for which you assume total responsibility.
Maybe time to get rid of the pilots. Or keep them in the cockpit but just monitor, or intervene when the automatics fail.

With the degree of automation in aircraft these days, coupled/interfaced with automatics minded pilots, i doubt this accident would have happened if it was left totally to the automatics. Put another way, the humans interfered and screwed it up, for reasons we are not aware.

Man is fast becoming the weak link. We all know we are not going to elimate human error. I'm a dinosaur but even i can see what's happening and what the trend is.
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Old 26th May 2020, 18:23
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According to Pakistani media channel ARY ATC approach and tower controllers have given their statements. According to them pilots ignored their warnings at 10nm about being high and fast. Trying to manage that they forgot the gear and landed first time with gear up.
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Old 26th May 2020, 18:25
  #678 (permalink)  
 
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Arrow

Originally Posted by Rapid D
I understand and agree with you. I was replying to the comment that on an approach to RWY 25, a turn to 280 would be a right turn. ATC actually said "turn left to heading 180". Whoever wrote the text on the video got it wrong and wrote 280.

That being said, a significant turn like that after already having given approach clearance if just bizarre. Why didn't ATC just cancel approach clearance if they were (rightly so) concerned about the safety of continuing this approach?
I think the ATC vector 280 offered was on the first original approach as ATC observed they were hot and high! The turn left heading 180 was after the go-around.
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Old 26th May 2020, 18:37
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
It's not a simple question, because there is as yet no evidence as to whether the gear was or wasn't lowered at some stage. We can only infer that it wasn't down by the time the engines hit the runway.
Are those kind of descent rates possible on final approach, without the gear?
They went from 2000’ to 100’ in 1.4 minutes, while slowing down from 240 to 210 kts.
That is about 1500’/min, while slowing down.
I don’t think the ‘bus would do that, without some gear assistance.

Silver
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Old 26th May 2020, 18:37
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Originally Posted by CaptainMongo
Vilas,

Below is a link to an article, “Pitch-up Upsets due to ILS False Glide Slope.” Conducted by the Dutch safety Board.

IMC I could see a false 6 or 9 degree capture going unnoticed for a short period but VMC probably not.

regards,


https://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/med...nteractief.pdf
Thanks CM
Well while I would agree with you in general but strange things have happened also in VMC. Air India Hong Kong incident was in VMC the crew was specifically asked by ATC whether they are aware about GS fluctuation. And yet in 10km visibility the aircraft pitched down 2nm before FAP and descended at 2700ft/mt. then settling down at ROD of 2000ft/mt. The crew didn't notice a thing till at 300ft over the sea when the GPWS sounded they looked outside and went round. It was a narrow escape. So anything is possible.
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