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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

Old 26th May 2020, 16:36
  #661 (permalink)  
 
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Similarities AIE Mangalore & PIA Karachi.

Originally Posted by vilas View Post
ATC was trying to vector them to give space as they were high. But they said they are already established. It could be a case of false glideslope because while ATC was very uncomfortable with their position pilots were totally at ease. Similar thing happened in AI Express crash at Mangalore India.
There are some similarities wrt unstabilised approaches in both , but the aircraft was fully configured although way too fast triggering flap load relief and touchdown was more than half way down the runway on the gear in the AIE case .
Both these cases , the pilots seem to be out of the loop and decide to go around after the initial touchdown which in hindsight seems to have more of an effect on the lives lost ironically..
Also , the CVR in AIE showed the copilot announcing go-around but the captain continued and the copilot did not assert himself , the DGCA eventually came out with a circular on subtle incapacitation and the mangalore crash is often cited in CRM and pilot training modules at Indian carriers .

Let’s wait for the CVR/FDR data and investigation reports to get the HF info on the PIA crash . Sad day for aviation .
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Old 26th May 2020, 17:01
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Originally Posted by vilas View Post
ATC was trying to vector them to give space as they were high. But they said they are already established. It could be a case of false glideslope because while ATC was very uncomfortable with their position pilots were totally at ease. Similar thing happened in AI Express crash at Mangalore India.
Vilas,

Below is a link to an article, “Pitch-up Upsets due to ILS False Glide Slope.” Conducted by the Dutch safety Board.

IMC I could see a false 6 or 9 degree capture going unnoticed for a short period but VMC probably not.

regards,


https://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/med...nteractief.pdf




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Old 26th May 2020, 17:28
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Originally Posted by RudderTrimZero View Post
A very amateurish attempt at recreating the approach
For which they have wisely disabled comments.
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Old 26th May 2020, 17:34
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If you're high and fast 'gear is your friend" when you're trying to manage your total energy from a 'too much' to a normal energy profile. Going 'downhill' at 210 kts, along with being high on the glideslope, the plane will not slow down, or at least not quickly, without gear.
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Old 26th May 2020, 17:56
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Without speculation where is the shared knowledge, the brainstorming, the "I never in the world would have thought of that", the fodder for some crazy movie? Would not one expect that engineers designing the next generation would be reading all of the speculative ideas which then might enter the FMEAs of the next gen? The master button that will light up indicating the airplane thinks you are doing something stupid, are you sure you want to do this knowing that I (the plane) think your actions may cause a crash? Press here to continue your foolish action for which you assume total responsibility.
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Old 26th May 2020, 18:23
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According to Pakistani media channel ARY ATC approach and tower controllers have given their statements. According to them pilots ignored their warnings at 10nm about being high and fast. Trying to manage that they forgot the gear and landed first time with gear up.
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Old 26th May 2020, 18:25
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Arrow

Originally Posted by Rapid D View Post
I understand and agree with you. I was replying to the comment that on an approach to RWY 25, a turn to 280 would be a right turn. ATC actually said "turn left to heading 180". Whoever wrote the text on the video got it wrong and wrote 280.

That being said, a significant turn like that after already having given approach clearance if just bizarre. Why didn't ATC just cancel approach clearance if they were (rightly so) concerned about the safety of continuing this approach?
I think the ATC vector 280 offered was on the first original approach as ATC observed they were hot and high! The turn left heading 180 was after the go-around.
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Old 26th May 2020, 18:37
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
It's not a simple question, because there is as yet no evidence as to whether the gear was or wasn't lowered at some stage. We can only infer that it wasn't down by the time the engines hit the runway.
Are those kind of descent rates possible on final approach, without the gear?
They went from 2000’ to 100’ in 1.4 minutes, while slowing down from 240 to 210 kts.
That is about 1500’/min, while slowing down.
I don’t think the ‘bus would do that, without some gear assistance.

Silver
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Old 26th May 2020, 18:37
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Originally Posted by CaptainMongo View Post
Vilas,

Below is a link to an article, “Pitch-up Upsets due to ILS False Glide Slope.” Conducted by the Dutch safety Board.

IMC I could see a false 6 or 9 degree capture going unnoticed for a short period but VMC probably not.

regards,


https://www.onderzoeksraad.nl/en/med...nteractief.pdf
Thanks CM
Well while I would agree with you in general but strange things have happened also in VMC. Air India Hong Kong incident was in VMC the crew was specifically asked by ATC whether they are aware about GS fluctuation. And yet in 10km visibility the aircraft pitched down 2nm before FAP and descended at 2700ft/mt. then settling down at ROD of 2000ft/mt. The crew didn't notice a thing till at 300ft over the sea when the GPWS sounded they looked outside and went round. It was a narrow escape. So anything is possible.
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Old 26th May 2020, 18:56
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Originally Posted by silverstrata View Post
Are those kind of descent rates possible on final approach, without the gear?
They went from 2000’ to 100’ in 1.4 minutes, while slowing down from 240 to 210 kts.
That is about 1500’/min, while slowing down.
I don’t think the ‘bus would do that, without some gear assistance.
Hmm, with Flaps 3 that could probably be doable. Leaving decelleration aside that would be a glide ratio of 15. That's about what the Bus would do in clean config at that speed. With Slats and flaps 3 but gear up a decel from 240 to 210 (30% less energy = 30% more drag) with the same flight path doesn't seem unreasonable.

Last edited by henra; 26th May 2020 at 19:20.
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Old 26th May 2020, 18:59
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Originally Posted by Out Of Trim View Post
I think the ATC vector 280 offered was on the first original approach as ATC observed they were hot and high! The turn left heading 180 was after the go-around.
No. This was discussed a few 100 posts ago (#511). ATC proposed a left turn to 180 on the initial approach, but it was wrongly transcribed as 280 on the video.
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Old 26th May 2020, 19:00
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From Dunya News in Pakistan:

Pilot of the crashed plane did not open landing gear: ATC


Last Updated On 26 May,2020 07:08 pm

KARACHI (Dunya News) – In a major development in the investigation of PIA plane crash, the on-duty Air traffic controller and approach tower controller have submitted their written statements.

According to sources, both the controllers were investigated by the Air Investigation Board. The written reply said that on May 22, PK 8303 was handled by the Approach Tower Controller from Lahore to Karachi. The task of landing the aircraft was then transferred to ATC, 10 nautical miles before landing.

The approach and the air traffic controller have provided all information about the incident to the inquiry board, claiming that the captain ignored instructions given 10 nautical miles before landing.

The approach controller said that before landing, when the plane is usually at an altitude of 1800 feet, the captain was flying at an altitude of 3000 feet and even after repeated instructions, the captain maintained that he would manage altitude and speed before landing.

The ATC further said that the captain landed the plane for the first time without opening the landing gear. On the first landing, both engines collided with the runway and rubbed against it three times and caused sparking before the captain pulled the plane back up asked for permission to land again.

According to sources, the investigation team questioned the ATC and the approach tower controllers whether the captain had signaled for an emergency landing, to which they replied that the captain did not declare to attempt an emergency landing and insisted that he would land normally.


https://dunyanews.tv/en/Pakistan/546...nding-gear-ATC
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Old 26th May 2020, 19:03
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Old 26th May 2020, 20:14
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(pax). A bit disconcerted by the talk about using the gear to slow the thing down. Is that really an option in day to day ops and if you do it aren't there subsequent consequences since you shouldn't have been in that state anyway ( well so I assume). Thanks for your patience, I only sit in the back.
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Old 26th May 2020, 20:18
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BEA latest update:

"Communication done on behalf of the AAIB team of Pakistan.

1) BEA, AIB and Safran investigators have not left Pakistan and their mission is ongoing.
2) The CVR has not been recovered at this point in time.
3) The FDR has not left Pakistan."

Last edited by F-MANU; 26th May 2020 at 20:29.
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Old 26th May 2020, 20:34
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Originally Posted by F-MANU View Post
BEA latest update:

"Communication done on behalf of the AAIB team of Pakistan.

1) BEA, AIB and Safran investigators have not left Pakistan and their mission is ongoing.
2) The CVR has not been recovered at this point in time.
3) The FDR has not left Pakistan."
Not sure I trust Pakistan to turn over data to the French. It’s pretty clear the chance for their flagship airline (w military pilot) to look pretty bad is high.
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Old 26th May 2020, 20:37
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Originally Posted by Mr Optimistic View Post
(pax). A bit disconcerted by the talk about using the gear to slow the thing down. Is that really an option in day to day ops and if you do it aren't there subsequent consequences since you shouldn't have been in that state anyway ( well so I assume). Thanks for your patience, I only sit in the back.
It really is an option, and whilst I’ve only had to resort to it a couple of times in Europe it was something that I have had to do quite often at some airfields in Asia, normally due to political or terrain issues coupled with ATC requirements. However, all of these were pre-briefed and we were expecting to do it to capture the glide slope from above. Not, however, at Karachi, where in my experience the ATC service was one of the best on the sub continent. As a caveat, I fly Boeing, not Airbus, and haven’t been to Karachi for about two years, but the principles of descent planning (3 x height plus 10 for top of descent and 3 x ht and 5 x ground speed for an ILS approach) work for every type I’ve flown, and the fact that it so basic a principal for gross error checking for every captain or f/o that I’ve ever flown with or trained makes this accident so difficult to understand. But as has been said we won’t really know until the CVR and FDR is read.
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Old 26th May 2020, 20:48
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Originally Posted by F-MANU View Post
2) The CVR has not been recovered at this point in time.
3) The FDR has not left Pakistan."
Thanks F-MANU

That smells fishy to me. In above pictures the BEA folks point with their fingers to the recorder positions. They should have both be retrieved by now and the location looks, that they should be in good shape.
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Old 26th May 2020, 21:14
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Originally Posted by EDLB View Post
Thanks F-MANU

That smells fishy to me. In above pictures the BEA folks point with their fingers to the recorder positions. They should have both be retrieved by now and the location looks, that they should be in good shape.
Looks like something changed about the plan to fly back to France with the CVR and FDR.

From The Express Tribune in Pakistan:

Airbus investigation team completes initial probe of PIA aircraft crash

By ​ Our Correspondent
Published: May 26, 2020

KARACHI:
The Airbus investigation team completed its initial investigation into the Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) aircraft crash. The probe team inspected the runway of the Jinnah International Airport. They also visited the air traffic control tower and radar control station.

The 11-member investigating team of Airbus reached Pakistan from France on Tuesday to probe into the Pakistan International Airlines (PIA) plane crash.

The specialists will visit the plane crash site area in Model Colony and also provide technical assistance to their Pakistani counterparts to probe the reasons for the crash.

The Airbus experts are expected to take the aircraft’s black box recorder which contains the flight data recorder and cockpit voice recorder and any other evidence that would help with the investigation.

The team will fly back to France at 10pm tonight after 16-hours of investigation.


https://tribune.com.pk/story/2228725...aches-karachi/


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Old 26th May 2020, 21:14
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In above pictures the BEA folks point with their fingers to the recorder positions.
On the other hand, he might simply have been asking his colleague to take a photograph of the screw jack or another significant piece of wreckage.
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