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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

Old 23rd May 2020, 20:56
  #321 (permalink)  
 
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Need to see the whole approach data. The first 2 lines of Airbubba's data- 800' to 475' in 11 seconds appears unstable though not enough data to prove it.
I also think the CVR will be quite revealing.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 21:00
  #322 (permalink)  
 
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Well the FO in Dubai certainly raised the gear too early. We will find out soon enough what happened in Karachi. But I am unclear why if the gear was selected up prior to the unintended ground contact you would expect to see anything different on the table Airbubba posted. The fact that PIA landed previous generations of jets wheels up is not really relevant to the warning systems on modern aircraft. I would be interested if anyone else typed on the A320 thinks forgetting the gear is a likely scenario.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 21:06
  #323 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sriajuda View Post
Well, maybe they had a scrape. But apparently their engines were able to spool up and provide TOGA thrust. So why schould they both, quite simultaneously, suddenly cut out? Why no APU start? (RAT deployed). To me, (layman!!!) all this points to problems with fuel supply. And the landing gear? No hydraulic pressure? And even when that, is there to a grav-assisted lowering of the gear? Nothing here seems to make sense.
The touchdown probably destroyed oil lines and perhaps the pumps. Jet engines will run for several minutes without oil.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 21:11
  #324 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by lederhosen View Post
Well the FO in Dubai certainly raised the gear too early. We will find out soon enough what happened in Karachi. But I am unclear why if the gear was selected up prior to the unintended ground contact you would expect to see anything different on the table Airbubba posted. The fact that PIA landed previous generations of jets wheels up is not really relevant to the warning systems on modern aircraft. I would be interested if anyone else typed on the A320 thinks forgetting the gear is a likely scenario.
Fair points. But... Factor in almost no flying for two months. This part of the world the narrow body FO's are relatively green. An obviously messed up approach. Fixation on catching the profile. Startle effect from TOGA. My gut says never down in the first place as opposed to being early on raising gear. Just my opinion as to most likely factors.

As for the Airbubba table. It helps to rule out a bounce which was one scenario brought foward.

I never brought up any past PIA incident.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 21:24
  #325 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by metro301 View Post
We shall see soon enough once the FDR is read. I have seen guys get so fixated that yes... It could be missed even in a 320. (I am current 320)
Precisely.
I think the gear was missed in the rushed approach. I think that this is unfolding as a human factors accident.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 21:39
  #326 (permalink)  
 
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What PJ2 said.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 21:49
  #327 (permalink)  
 
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[QUOTE=Bluffontheriver123;10790640]This video nails it pretty well.

3500 at 5nm (over 2x the normal path), overspeed warning on recording, pod strike in the pictures and ATC mention a belly up landing.

Looks like high energy unstable approach, leading to a crash landing bounce, go-around into the circuit. Essentially crashed the jet then tried to fly it.
Hi all

I would like to throw my 2 cents on the video recording which I must say is a very nicely made one . m an atc

1.

at a time 2:25

C: you have to be turning left

P: we are proceeding direct we lost both engines

C: confirm belly lending

My opinion . It indicates To me that a controller didnt quite understand the message that pilot transmitted and he was clarifying the message itself it does not mean that the controller was expecting or was aware of belly landing from the pilots and he was just digesting the transmitted message and not contemplating a belly landing itself. But both engines sound similar to belly landing . Add stress and distortions.
The second thing that came into my mind is that just on the climb upon going around there is no unusual messages from the ATC its quite obvious that if there was something happening the controller must have seen it and informed the pilot immediately lets say if they saw them having gear issues and scratching the runway they should have immediately informed the pilot. Theres so many reports of marks on RW and people seeing first attempted landing with no gear m really surprised theres no mention of anything from ATC side . Triggers tons of questions.

The third thing is that if they had some problems with the gear just before the first landing attempt they should have also informed the controller about it and that would have triggered alerting certain services to a local standby/ emergency immediately as gear problems on the runway can result in very many unpleasant things for everybody so its never taken casually by an ATC. But that again might depend on the part of the world .
Looks like they are quite reserved in RT over there i have million questions as for ATC -pilot interaction, phraseology and all, not to mention a gear up 3500 5 mile thing...quite nasty .



Last edited by voiceinurheadset; 23rd May 2020 at 22:37.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 21:57
  #328 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by clark y View Post
Need to see the whole approach data. The first 2 lines of Airbubba's data- 800' to 475' in 11 seconds appears unstable though not enough data to prove it.
Posted earlier in the thread. Probably best to read it from the start.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 22:13
  #329 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PJ2 View Post
Precisely.
I think the gear was missed in the rushed approach. I think that this is unfolding as a human factors accident.
The accident started with whatever caused them to be high energy at 3500ft 4km out. It was made much more likely by whatever caused the crew to reject the ATC offer of delaying vectors to lose height. After they bashed it on the ground, it was made more likely again by the tight circuit rather than the life-saving Smartlynx teardrop. And then it was sealed by bringing them back in over a built-up area.

I think ATC has a bit of a case to answer here, as well.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 22:14
  #330 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 7AC View Post
Can anybody tell me what the rush is all the time to retract the gear ?
This annoys the heck out of me too. I've seen it on the line way too many times. Trigger happy PMs (in both seats), who are more concerned about going through the song/dance than looking for the real cues. Training for positive rate/climb identification is based on teaching pilots to recognise a positive V/S trend and increasing RA. You can both of those parameters (momentarily) without engine power. The FMA for a go around and dealing with the lack of it is way more important than raising the landing gear.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 22:37
  #331 (permalink)  
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Iron Duck, how do you see ATC being involved?
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Old 23rd May 2020, 22:44
  #332 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Iron Duck View Post
The accident started with whatever caused them to be high energy at 3500ft 4km out...*snip*
4K. No way. That would be even worse. Where are you getting they were 4 k out at 3500?
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Old 23rd May 2020, 22:45
  #333 (permalink)  
 
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What was the aural warning on the ATC recording?

Flap overspeed?
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Old 23rd May 2020, 22:46
  #334 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by PJ2 View Post
Iron Duck, how do you see ATC being involved?
Pass the blame to ATC never mind PIC/PF is responsible. Sheesh.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 22:47
  #335 (permalink)  
 
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I would be interested if anyone else typed on the A320 thinks forgetting the gear is a likely scenario.
Different scenario but another recent A320 gear up approach in which human factors played a large part. Fortunately, a far different outcome.

https://www.atsb.gov.au/publications...r/ao-2018-042/



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Old 23rd May 2020, 22:53
  #336 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by tubby linton View Post
For those saying that the landing gear was retracted too early I would disagree. It never happened.
When the gear is selected up the gear doors open. They hang down below the level of the nacelle until the leg has retracted. If they had contacted the runway they would have been substantially damaged but in the photo of the aircraft showing the rat extended the door looks intact, so in my opinion the gear was never extended on the first approach.
You can watch a gear swing here-
https://youtu.be/vfGn_1shZAs
Further, if the gear was down, the aircraft bounced, and the gear was raised the gear doesn't instantly retract. The gear doors would have to open, the gear retract, then the doors close, all of this happening during a bounce. Retraction takes approximately 8 seconds; that is some bounce.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 22:53
  #337 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by gearlever View Post
What was the aural warning on the ATC recording?

Flap overspeed?
Waster warning. Likely a Flap Overspeed though given the profile on approach and attempt to salvage it....
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Old 23rd May 2020, 23:00
  #338 (permalink)  
 
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I've not heard the entire ATC recording, but from first spotting they were high and fast, and offering delaying vectors, ATC should have paid particular attention to this approach. An observer with binoculars should have seen the ground strike and climb-away trailing smoke. I would at least have expected ATC to have warned them that they'd hit the ground, were smoking, and probably had engine damage. I would then have expected ATC pro-actively to have vectored them clear of built-up areas either by suggesting a tear-drop return or an approach that avoided the Model Colony, which is built up almost to the runway threshold.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 23:01
  #339 (permalink)  
 
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No, not passing the blame, but recognising that it appears ATC could have done a bit more than it seems they did.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 23:25
  #340 (permalink)  
 
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I'd like to take this conversation back to when the aircraft was 10-15 miles out.
If we consider that at about 6 miles out (depends on if you are using RNAV or ILS and which runway as the basis of your GS and intercept point) you want to be at about 2000' . They are reported to have been at 3500' at about 5 miles out.
Granted, I am not familiar with PIA's SOPs, so this is a bit of a guess based on what I observe when I am (on a rare occasion) in the back of an aluminum tube.
When they were 15 miles out (or so) my thought is that the crew should either be in the process of configuring the aircraft for landing, or already be configured, depending on the situation at hand. Gear / flaps / various checklist items, etc.

What happened in the intervening ten miles?

Last time I was in the back end of a passenger jet, they had the gear down about 10 miles or a bit more from the airport. What was going on in this case from 15 miles out to them arriving at 5 miles out well above profile?

Will be interesting to see the FDR info, and see where and when configuration changes actually occurred. (Or if they did)

PJ2 alluded to a human factors element, and I am thinking through a CRM problem: in the past three months, how often have the two pilots flown and have their habits/processes gotten rusty due to the curtailment of flying in general. The old currency/recency thing has me wondering.

True confessions time: more than once I had either a crewman, co pilot, or a tower ask me to check my gear on short final. With good reason. It can happen to anyone if a particular habit pattern, or rhythm, gets disrupted as one gets into the terminal area.

Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 23rd May 2020 at 23:36.
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