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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

Old 23rd May 2020, 11:40
  #221 (permalink)  
 
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Apart from Jetstar I can think of an Air France incident some years ago which was very similar (hot and high into CDG and failure to push all the way to TOGA ending up rather lower than intended). Go-arounds as we have discussed many times are one of the most often poorly performed basic manoeuvres.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 12:03
  #222 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by freshgasflow View Post
Also tower talks about belly landing, when no such thing was hinted before. Is it possible that tower has seen something untoward for them to suggest belly landing ?
Surely they saw the first attempt with no wheels down. A belly landing is not something a control tower would normally ask about after a mayday call. This report will make interesting reading.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 12:17
  #223 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sriajuda View Post
Well, maybe they had a scrape. But apparently their engines were able to spool up and provide TOGA thrust. So why schould they both, quite simultaneously, suddenly cut out?
There are Oil lines, pumps, generators, manifolds, etc. on the bottom of the nacelles. A touchdown on the pods bears a big risk of severing oil lines. The resulting oil loss leading to freezing of the engines would fit rather well to the timing of the events.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 12:20
  #224 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by lederhosen View Post
Apart from Jetstar I can think of an Air France incident some years ago which was very similar (hot and high into CDG and failure to push all the way to TOGA ending up rather lower than intended). Go-arounds as we have discussed many times are one of the most often poorly performed basic manoeuvres.
Air France A319 in Sept 2009. Pilot did not apply sufficient thrust while willing to go around due to bad weather conditions leading to the Autopilot remaining in landing mode. A/P was disengaged and aircraft regained speed and altitude at only 76 feet above the ground. Enquiry concluded that main responsibility was on Pilot's inadequate commands being applied but also identified the lack of proper altitude checks and incorrect procedures / training at AF. Systems automation was also pointed as a secondary contributor to the incident by AF Unions.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 12:24
  #225 (permalink)  
 
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ʜᴏᴛ ᴀᴘᴘʀᴏᴀᴄʜ ⇨ ᴄᴀʟʟ ɢᴏ ᴀʀᴏᴜɴᴅ ⇨ ɢᴇᴀʀ ᴜᴘ ⇨ ᴄʟɪᴍʙ ɴᴏᴛ ᴇsᴛᴀʙʟɪsʜᴇᴅ ʙᴇғᴏʀᴇ ɢᴇᴀʀ ᴜᴘ ᴛᴏᴜᴄʜᴅᴏᴡɴ ⇨ ᴄʟɪᴍʙ ᴏɴ ᴛᴇʀᴍɪɴᴀʟʟʏ ᴅᴀᴍᴀɢᴇᴅ ᴇɴɢɪɴᴇs
That’s where my money would be.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 12:28
  #226 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by FIRESYSOK View Post
Surely they saw the first attempt with no wheels down. A belly landing is not something a control tower would normally ask about after a mayday call. This report will make interesting reading.
Yes, It seems ATCO and crew communicated about gear problems before attempting the approach. That looks more likely than crew retracting gear early, after all they were light, 90plus pax
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Old 23rd May 2020, 12:30
  #227 (permalink)  
 
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Many technical questions being asked about the A320’s protections and warnings.

For those not familiar with the FBW Airbus types a Google search of “A320 CBT YouTube” provide some good presentations that will give you a better understanding of the warnings an A320 will give you, the protections it can provide, and by default the ones it doesn’t, particularly in Alternate Law or Direct Law, which is what it is likely to default in to with multiple failures, why the RAT extends automatically, what a continuous uncancellable warning horn is likely to be for close to the ground etc.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 12:30
  #228 (permalink)  
 
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Surely they saw the first attempt with no wheels down. A belly landing is not something a control tower would normally ask about after a mayday call. This report will make interesting reading.

Is there any chance of getting a A320 near a runway from 3500? 5 miles out with out the gear down ? Warnings where more likely to be flap over speed while pushing nose down ? ATC would be saying something if they saw an aircraft going through 500 ft with gear still up I’d hope?
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Old 23rd May 2020, 12:35
  #229 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by bedsted View Post
I think you will find that all SOP's call for gear up after a positive rate of climb
Agree ! my mistake, I want to say early flaps retraction, combined with gear retraction before positive climb.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 12:45
  #230 (permalink)  
 
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The gear was certainly down the second time as the video clearly shows. So I cannot yet see any evidence that it was unserviceable or that it was not down the first time until it was selected up on deciding to go-around. By not properly engaging TOGA the engines would not spool up and the flight director commands would not provide guidance. The aircraft might then sink low enough to strike the runway. We don't yet know that is what happened, but others have got close on previous occasions. Nothing is sure, but it would fit with what we do know so far.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 12:57
  #231 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Toruk Macto View Post
Surely they saw the first attempt with no wheels down. A belly landing is not something a control tower would normally ask about after a mayday call. This report will make interesting reading.



Is there any chance of getting a A320 near a runway from 3500? 5 miles out with out the gear down ? Warnings where more likely to be flap over speed while pushing nose down ? ATC would be saying something if they saw an aircraft going through 500 ft with gear still up I’d hope ?
Fifi can get down quickly; but not if you want to remain gainfully employed in aviation. This crash began several minutes before that.. if youre that close with that much energy your head is not in the game. Bug out; collect your thoughts and reset your head.
my company specifically states that a missed approach is not evidence of poor skill.
-its evidence of good judgement.

ATC aren’t looking at your gear; another pilot might; but it’s not the kind of thing you’re looking out for...
i wonder how much these folks had flown in the last few weeks; I wouldn’t be surprised if that was a factor, as well as the authority and recency gradients in CRM speak.
what a cluster..

Last edited by neilki; 23rd May 2020 at 13:11.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 12:59
  #232 (permalink)  
 
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Automatic gear extension.

Originally Posted by neilki View Post
theres no ‘automatically extend the gear option’
The only ‘protection is the gear can’t be extended over 10k above max extension speed
There are only two aircrafts that had and have that feature: the Bugatti racer and the latest lanceAir Mako. Now it seams a good idea to have this feature one more step towards Drones.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 13:10
  #233 (permalink)  
 
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WhatsaLizad?, #236

Anything amongst the previous speculations to negate a simpler view; oil leak from both engines after previous servicing. Hence under cowl staining, engine failure after GA climb out.

Or have I missed a post which actually confirms that the aircraft engines hit the ground.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 13:14
  #234 (permalink)  
 
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Ollie Onion.

Yours is the only explanation that makes sense to me. Very possible.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 13:24
  #235 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by safetypee View Post
Or have I missed a post which actually confirms that the aircraft engines hit the ground.
Have you read post #165? 'Confirm' as in 'officially' maybe not yet, but strong indications from onboard eye-witness that some metal structure touched the concrete "...the jolts and sparks due to the friction were so severe that the pilots lifted the plane again". And engine cowlings are a good candidate, within field of view of the pax.

Last edited by DIBO; 23rd May 2020 at 13:25. Reason: grammar
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Old 23rd May 2020, 13:35
  #236 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by safetypee View Post
WhatsaLizad?, #236

Anything amongst the previous speculations to negate a simpler view; oil leak from both engines after previous servicing. Hence under cowl staining, engine failure after GA climb out.

Or have I missed a post which actually confirms that the aircraft engines hit the ground.
You might want to have a closer look at the picture in post #85
https://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/632693-pia-a320-crash-karachi-post10790064.html
If you look at the nacelles it is clear this wasn't just an oil leak. They are torn on the bottom. Those pods 100% scratched the tarmac. At a nose high attitude.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 13:37
  #237 (permalink)  
 
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I watched the Blancolirio channel, and from the evidence he presents it seems almost certain that they landed without the gear down, scraped the engines and then took off again and crashed when the engines failed. It seems the initial contact damaged both engines, but unfortunately not enough to stop them from getting back into the air. Here is a fairly clear video of the crash itself and the aftermath:

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Old 23rd May 2020, 13:37
  #238 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DIBO View Post
Have you read post #165? 'Confirm' as in 'officially' maybe not yet, but strong indications from onboard eye-witness that some metal structure touched the concrete "...the jolts and sparks due to the friction were so severe that the pilots lifted the plane again". And engine cowlings are a good candidate, within field of view of the pax.
Which would then make sense of ATC asking if they wanted to attempt a belly landing, presumably on next attempt.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 13:38
  #239 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by henra View Post
You might want to have a closer look at the picture in post #85
https://www.pprune.org/showthread.php?p=10790064
If you look at the nacelles it is clear this wasn't just an oil leak. They are torn on the bottom. Those pods 100% scratched the tarmac. At a nose high attitude.
surprising it didn’t liberate the cowls. The latches are right in the impact zone and the cowls are carbon composite... more likely to be a brief high (ish) descent rate than dragging along for hundreds of feet settling...
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Old 23rd May 2020, 13:44
  #240 (permalink)  
 
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AVH now reporting that sources within Pakistani CAA confirm ground contact was made with retracted gear on first approach, there was no communication of any fault or gear issue prior to the go-around. Sadly this confirms all that was suspected following the release of the PSPK photos.

From the wording it is not yet clear if the gear remained retracted throughout the approach, or if it was retracted before a positive climb was achieved, however the MLG doors would have been damaged if the gears were in transit while making the ground contact (Smartlynx), but no such damage is visible on the photos.
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