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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

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PIA A320 Crash Karachi

Old 23rd May 2020, 10:19
  #201 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Timmy Tomkins View Post
Apologies if his has been covered before but I am not an Airbus driver. I understood that the A320 would lower the gear at 1000 rad alt if it had been forgotton; would that protection have not played a part here?
Incorrect. You only get a Master Warning at 750ft. NO automatic gear extension under any circumstances.

”TOGA TAP”, is essentially the correct Go Around procedure for A320 NEO’s. The reading or lack of reading of the FMA is the key element that caused the JQ incident.

I don’t agree with the procedure as it is written. FMA should be read to ensure MAN TOGA is selected before reducing thrust in anyway, even to Soft Go Around mode.


Last edited by The Shovel; 23rd May 2020 at 10:29.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 10:20
  #202 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Sriajuda View Post
Well, maybe they had a scrape. But apparently their engines were able to spool up and provide TOGA thrust. So why schould they both, quite simultaneously, suddenly cut out? Why no APU start? (RAT deployed). To me, (layman!!!) all this points to problems with fuel supply. And the landing gear? No hydraulic pressure? And even when that, is there to a grav-assisted lowering of the gear? Nothing here seems to make sense.
Read the Smartlynx accident report. The initial causes for the ground strike may have been different, but the behaviour of the aircraft post go-around is chillingly similar. The guys in Tallinn were saved by quick thinking (they did a teardrop rather than a full circuit) plus luck (no obstacles), but still slammed into the approach lights. Without the built-in area AP-BDO would have made it to about the same point before 25L but already inside airport grounds:
https://avherald.com/h?article=4b57c3dd

Last edited by andrasz; 23rd May 2020 at 10:32.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 10:20
  #203 (permalink)  
 
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I think Robdean and a couple of others are closest to the truth. I think the aircraft was serviceable during first, fast approach. Gear was forgotten or raised early. Why? Who knows. Maybe the CVR with give an answer. Time will probably tell.
As for the belly landing, if the tower saw the first scrape, then I think asking about it was a fair question.

There has been many mishaps from touching the runway with the gear up. Some get away with it others have not.

As for the cultural aspect mentioned above, does PIA penalise pilots for missed approaches, too much fuel etc?
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Old 23rd May 2020, 10:21
  #204 (permalink)  
 
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Only 1400 meters to go to the 25L piano keys.
And just 200 meters to the right, uninhabited, rough but flat terrain in front of 25R. Which could have made it a much more survivable crash.
I know, hindsight is easy.


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Old 23rd May 2020, 10:26
  #205 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by double_barrel View Post
What do you guys think is the significance of the exchange during the 1st approach.where they say they are established on the localizer for 25L, ATC says 'turn left heading 280', they then repeat that they are established on the localizer with no further comment from ATC ? If they were truly on the localizer and flying 250, then 280 would require a right turn. This seems odd.
ATC, realising they were too high and fast, offered them a 330 degree left turn to lose height and re-establish on the localiser. Why would you turn that down?
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Old 23rd May 2020, 10:27
  #206 (permalink)  
 
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Like many airlines in the region, PIA's operating and safety culture very much tries to emulate Western standards but operating out of the third world is never easy and you're only as safe as the weakest person in the chain. It is a very old airline and though riddled with corruption over the years it's management and crew have been credited to have helped start ups in the Middle East.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 10:34
  #207 (permalink)  
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and the ATC transmissions on the video posted above are (time) edited and partial.
Those recording are mostly made by spotters small scanners that only work line of sight and will often miss transmissions., as was last demonstrated for instance in the recent Kathmandu Dash 8 accident as we had here dozen of pages debating a scenario based of the partial R/T which had little to do with the real situation if you had access to the full recording.....
Drawing conclusions on those partial communications is futile.

. .
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Old 23rd May 2020, 10:34
  #208 (permalink)  
 
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Speedbrakes?

What aural alarm would sound when deploying speedbrakes with flaps? Maybe that distracted them?
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Old 23rd May 2020, 10:36
  #209 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Timmy Tomkins View Post
Apologies if his has been covered before but I am not an Airbus driver. I understood that the A320 would lower the gear at 1000 rad alt if it had been forgotton; would that protection have not played a part here?
theres no ‘automatically extend the gear option’
The only ‘protection is the gear can’t be extended over 10k above max extension speed
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Old 23rd May 2020, 10:38
  #210 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by scotbill View Post
ATC, realising they were too high and fast, offered them a 330 degree left turn to lose height and re-establish on the localiser. Why would you turn that down?
Common , do you understand the meaning of "established on ILS "? and who is responsible for what in this situation ?
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Old 23rd May 2020, 10:39
  #211 (permalink)  
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... and in a normal landing configuration, shouldn't the flaps and slats be extended? on this picture (post118) flaps and slats seem to be still fully retracted. (sorry I fly helicopters and we don't have flaps here)
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Old 23rd May 2020, 10:39
  #212 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by maddog2872 View Post
What aural alarm would sound when deploying speedbrakes with flaps? Maybe that distracted them?
None.

The warning heard on the tape is the flap over speed. Nothing to do with speedbrakes.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 10:39
  #213 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RiSq View Post
I’d hazard a guess that the ATCO has seen the first approach and subsequent sparks. When the pilot initially declares the emergency the ATCO asks about the belly landing as he is still target fixated on what he saw.
If he'd seen the pod strike and sparks, and whether or not he had it would be hard to miss the smoke trails on climb-out, did the ATCO tell the aircraft they'd struck the runway? If not, why not?
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Old 23rd May 2020, 10:41
  #214 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by andrasz View Post
Read the Smartlynx accident report.
Comparable gear-up strike at Shannon in 1999 with a Lockheed Electra. Pulled away from runway but two out of four engines failed, electrical power lost, etc, only just made it back round
https://aviation-safety.net/database...?id=19990301-0
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Old 23rd May 2020, 10:42
  #215 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by maddog2872 View Post
What aural alarm would sound when deploying speedbrakes with flaps? Maybe that distracted them?
flaps full & speedbrakes is a single
chime master caution and yellow Speedbrakes message on the SD -lower ECAM screen. The speedbrakes will automatically retract if any of the high angle of attack protections are active -a prot or a max..
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Old 23rd May 2020, 10:44
  #216 (permalink)  
 
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Very interesting picture from DIBO. They were quite literally seconds from reaching the clear ground in front of the runway. Dead sticking a medium jet is something we do not seriously train for, I have done it a handful of times in the last twenty years of sim training more for fun when time was left over than real training. If the picture of the aircraft post first attempt at landing is to be believed then the gear was up. When they selected it down would have been crucial on the second attempt and may well have made the difference to reaching the runway or at least landing short but everyone surviving like the British Airways 777 at Heathrow and the sad result we see here. Rob Dean's post 192 sums up pretty well what may well have led up to this.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 10:58
  #217 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by LegiossTypeH View Post
. Airbus recommand pilots to retract gears moments late in low altitude because the aircraft will sink initially due to high pass ratio engines.
I think you will find that all SOP's call for gear up after a positive rate of climb
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Old 23rd May 2020, 11:02
  #218 (permalink)  
 
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Damaged fuel supply lines? Enough gets through at high power and the engines are obviously good enough to get them to 2000ft. But when the power is reduced so is the fuel pressure and the engines struggle.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 11:07
  #219 (permalink)  
 
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There’s a lot of plumbing at the bottom of nacelle. Fuel Oil Heat exchange;Generator oil and fuel return lines; hydraulic pumps to name a few. It’s not designed to withstand and impact like that and damage to any one of those systems becomes rapidly fatal. The pictures show dark staining under the engines that support a fluid leak that could easily be catastrophic.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 11:20
  #220 (permalink)  
 
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if they came in really hard and fast, and the mlg fully compressed, could there be enough wing flex for the engines to scrape?
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