IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs

[Jet II]

Anyone who wants to hear the interviews can get them HERE - interviews start at 40 minutes in to the program.

[king surf]

I heard Ian Dale mention that he had a friend whose salary was dropping from £75000 to £32000 so his friend was probably a ww CSD.
That £75000 is a lot more than many Pilots in BA. No wonder BA is slashing salaries.

[Dannyboy39]

Originally Posted by king surf

I heard Ian Dale mention that he had a friend whose salary was dropping from £75000 to £32000 so his friend was probably a ww CSD.That £75000 is a lot more than many Pilots in BA. No wonder BA is slashing salaries.

He also mentioned that someone had contacted him saying that she was now being offered less in 2020 than she started on in 1989. But her loyal service, incremental increases and promotions have earned those rises. I cannot disagree with what you're intimating that a 75k cabin crew salary is unsustainable and I presume, especially in a situation like this one, most cabin crew would accept that there would be need to be a reduction.

This situation cannot be "this and them" between pilots, engineers, head office and cabin crew - everyone needs to be together (I speak this as a non-BA employee). Aviation has a habit of doing this, and lets be honest, pilots do tend to get the better rub of the green in the aspect - I've seen this first hand. But they have invested vast sums in their future and are heavily trained; they are rightly the best paid operational staff. Of course this is a pilot forum, but there are a lot of non-pilot contributors and their viewpoints shouldn't be quashed because they don't work at the pointy end.

[king surf]

Such a brutal salary cut is not reasonable or fair for anyone. Cuts have to be managed properly and it is clear that IAG are taking every opportunity they can during this crisis . The plan to merge the cc fleets has probably been in place for a while. IAG have played a patient waiting game and pounced.
A game changer for many will be the mix of short haul and long haul with many living too far away to make it work and BA know this. It's interesting that ba managed to grit together a shiny new brochure so quickly explains to all what the new fleet will look like. It even mentions free car parking as a benefit!.
Unite need to get around the table with BA to stand any chance of striking some sort of compromise but listening to Len M last night I think no discussions at all will happen and BA will have won.

[Axel-Flo]

What’s an individuals value to the company?

I think you need to be very careful with what you deem people are worth in salary terms and more so to your core business🤔 Now there was an example of a flight engineer who, when the company went to a 2 man flight deck, was offered a CC role which he took and retained his salary for about a year until he went onto a new CC contract. The face of BA I would guess isn’t the pilots, that’s for sure, and what your CC do for the passengers, especially the Prems, Gold card holders and high paying first and club class passengers will have way more effect on them being a return customer than the efforts of a Nigel or Nigella? That some of them achieve a high salary must be compared to what a high class high cost restaurant perhaps pays its Maitre D or Sommelier and certainly should not be likened to an FO for example...those are very different skill sets, have very different value and potential and are comparing apples with oranges. As to what a New FO or even perhaps an older one from say a Typhoon cockpit should be paid when first starting a new role on a new type in a new company. You’re all in the same boat now with the issue of 188 to pilots as well as the rest of the company, working together to see the value in each other could never be more important as you go forward in an uncertain aviation future. I’m not sure the race to the bottom in salary and conditions will necessarily get you the right Face of BA “ in flight customer experience operatives” (Previously perhaps known as Cabin Crew) to convince business users to pay £7k for a first class fare to the US say? And what then, will they decide to rename you in front on the Flight deck door, as the “seat stick interface operative” in new contracts so that they can change all your terms as well?

[PC767]

Originally Posted by king surf

I heard Ian Dale mention that he had a friend whose salary was dropping from £75000 to £32000 so his friend was probably a ww CSD.
That £75000 is a lot more than many Pilots in BA. No wonder BA is slashing salaries.

I do not know for certain but I suspect that Iain Dale’s friend isn’t probably long serving full time world wide CSD. These are the only cabin crew who could attain such a salary. The numbers would be counted on two hands. They do not represent the salary costs or aspirations of the 12000 other cabin crew. I am senior crew with twenty years service, I do not come close to that figure nor even under current t&cs would I ever. Neither do I resent this crew member, they have done their time, worked hard and positively for BA and dare I say it, will soon be retired of their free will.

The debate which i hope does not start, is similar to quoting BA captains on £200k pa. Maybe a few under certain circumstances but certainly not representative of my pilot colleagues. It’s a red herring and distorts the debate.

[TOM100]

I am confused if they are not going to issue redundancy notices on 15th June (good) then why are they doing all this ? Or is this just a technical response i.e not on 15th but maybe on the 18th (or whatever date they choose). If, for example BASSA won’t meet until the s188 is removed what are BA waiting for ? Am just confused about the strategy ? Surely, the nearer to July (and possible Airbridges etc) they get, there is more business and their argument begins to dilute ? Curious.......

[Ancient Observer]

It will be all about what they think they can realistically and practically do.
How do you eat an elephant? - In small pieces with a knife and fork.
They need to train the managers to have very difficult conversations, and then they will work through small groups, one person at a time.

At least, that is what I would do!!

[TOM100]

Maybe - seems very cautious, given their approach thus far and that’s a lot of people to have conversations with (especially if a big chunk of them have been advised not to talk to you !)

[Jet II]

The question is not whether it is fair or not that CC on £75k a year (or even FC on £200k) are being told to take a pay cut, it is what are affordable pay levels gong forward in the new reality. If it is a future of lower yields due to social distancing, less PAX numbers overall and the competition paying lower wages due to a glut of pilots and CC on the market, then to remain in business (and BA needs to be a profitable business) massive restructuring is going to be needed in all areas - including remuneration.

[777JRM]

Originally Posted by Jet II

The question is not whether it is fair or not that CC on £75k a year (or even FC on £200k) are being told to take a pay cut, it is what are affordable pay levels gong forward in the new reality. If it is a future of lower yields due to social distancing, less PAX numbers overall and the competition paying lower wages due to a glut of pilots and CC on the market, then to remain in business (and BA needs to be a profitable business) massive restructuring is going to be needed in all areas - including remuneration.

Whatever one thinks of the pay levels, these employee costs were there when IAG made MASSIVE PROFITS.

There is no cost ‘problem’: IAG’s problem is REVENUE.

[TOM100]

If you can’t make revenue you have to go after the only other things you can control, like costs.....

[Jet II]

Originally Posted by 777JRM

Whatever one thinks of the pay levels, these employee costs were there when IAG made MASSIVE PROFITS.

Which they are no longer doing. The profits that BA made in the past are irrelevant to the challenges going forward.

[Joe le Taxi]

It's obvious to anyone outside the aviation bubble - that if the unions create this enormous inverted pyramid, with massive seniority determined T&C benefits for those at the top, for doing essentially the same job as those at the bottom .... then it is just an "accident" waiting to happen for the whole lot to be pushed over, with all the scales crashing down to the ground level.

Unfortunately (and probably as a result of the above) at BA, the ground level is very very low.

[777JRM]

Originally Posted by TOM100

If you can’t make revenue you have to go after the only other things you can control, like costs.....

And there lies the proof for this opportunist PERMANENT land-grab for what is a TEMPORARY problem.

Never waste a good crisis.

[PC767]

Originally Posted by Joe le Taxi

It's obvious to anyone outside the aviation bubble - that if the unions create this enormous inverted pyramid, with massive seniority determined T&C benefits for those at the top, for doing essentially the same job as those at the bottom .... then it is just an "accident" waiting to happen for the whole lot to be pushed over, with all the scales crashing down to the ground level.

Unfortunately (and probably as a result of the above) at BA, the ground level is very very low.

I must ask, how many industries outside of aviation have a traditional pyramid whereby senior staff, at the top, enjoy fewer benefits and less remuneration than those at the bottom with less service.

[Joe le Taxi]

So you're saying it's normal and inherently sustainable to have some people paid double and have infinitely better terms, when they're performing a pretty much identical task?

I think not.

[PC767]

Originally Posted by Joe le Taxi

So you're saying it's normal and inherently sustainable to have some people paid double and have infinitely better terms, when they're performing a pretty much identical task?

I think not.

I think so.

Does every Captain get paid the same? Should every long serving Captain be forced to earn the same as the newest Captain? Should experience, commitment and loyalty account for nothing?

The inverted pyramid you discussed is sustainable because those at the top are far fewer than those at the bottom.

[TOM100]

Rewarding people just on length of service is pretty dated - merit in most modern organisations is based on personal and company performance. Is it right a high performing employee should be paid less than an average performer just based on length of service ? Provided they both meet certain parameters - another view could be you want to reward and retain high performers and if the ones who just think it is their right as they’ve served their time - do the minimum, cynical ‘not like it used to be etc etc’ well an organisation might be happy for them to go........if your building high performing teams you need structures and reward to match not agreements designed in the 70’s.

[dirk85]

Define merit with reference to a pilot.

Number of diversions? Go arounds? Minutes of delays? Sick days? Fuel consumption?

What can possibly go wrong