Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Flight Deck Forums > Rumours & News
Reload this Page >

IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs

Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

IAG: BA restructuring may cost 12,000 jobs

Old 15th Sep 2020, 20:51
  #1801 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Costa del Gatwick
Posts: 130
On every communication from BASSA leading up to the VR cut off, they clearly stated that the IFCE proposals were just proposals, negotiations were ongoing, and you should only take VR if you were absolutely sure you wanted to leave. I'm not sure how much clearer they could have made it. BASSA are quite used to BA's games, putting forward a crappy deal to persuade people to leave and then offering a better deal once they have. I don't think BASSA can be blamed for people's knee jerk reactions, and their failure to carefully read communications.
starbag is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2020, 09:29
  #1802 (permalink)  

Controversial, moi?
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,591
Except that BASSA/UNITE refused to sit down with BA until very late in the game. That is not representing or negotiating.
M.Mouse is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2020, 10:16
  #1803 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: LUX
Posts: 26
Originally Posted by Fostex View Post
Do you honestly think there is limited long haul airliner/cargo capacity out there at present? A global airlift plan will be required, as it was for PPE, but the capacity is there, it just needs organised. BA won't be bringing back any 74s.
in fact, I KNOW there is! Cargo is booming due lack of capacity. Yields are already high and rising. Problem is the capacity for temp controlled cargo i.e vaccins
SaulGoodman is online now  
Old 16th Sep 2020, 21:01
  #1804 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: UK
Posts: 20
starbag

Point taken, but as M.Mouse has implied, by refusing to enter into consultations with BA for so long, BASSA may have robbed their membership of the opportunity to agree a better deal - and all that may have resulted from that.

Sadly it’s now too late.
Alrosa is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2020, 21:43
  #1805 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 148
Originally Posted by M.Mouse View Post
Except that BASSA/UNITE refused to sit down with BA until very late in the game. That is not representing or negotiating.
Unlike BALPA, UNITE and the GMB unions had Section 188 notifications issued by BA. Why wasnít a Section 188 notice given to the pilots Mr Mouse?

No wonder BALPA got on and negotiated having been bestowed with this privileged bespoke advantage. The other unions had a gun to their heads called ĎFire and Rehireí. Apparently legal in the UK,(not for much longer), but not in the lands of Aer Lingus or Iberia.

It is BA who refused to negotiate but instead decided to impose a scorched earth policy under the guise of the pandemic.

Still, the problems of other staff pale into insignificance compared to that of BAís pilots. How noble of senior flight crew marooned on the dead 747 fleet demanding conversion courses and LIFO. Junior pilots heaped with flying school debt, mortgages and young families cast out, because those at the top want to stay on another year.

Altruism seems to be in short supply on the flight deck.
Count Niemantznarr is offline  
Old 16th Sep 2020, 23:49
  #1806 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Location: UK
Posts: 16
BALPA was issued two section 188 letters in April(?). The first for 1080 redundancies, and a couple of weeks later another for a further 175 redundancies plus the same "fire and rehire" used across the board.

We entered the consultation with the same gun to our heads that GMB and UNITE had.

I'm not sure where your venomous tone comes from, but it's entirely misplaced here.
White Van Driver is online now  
Old 17th Sep 2020, 00:00
  #1807 (permalink)  

Controversial, moi?
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,591
Altruism is often talked about but, like 'safety is our primary concern', only happens if it doesn't cost much. True altruism is rare.

Pilots were served a Section 188 notice.

UNITE/BASSA carried out a widely reported public campaign about BA's opportunistic raid on Ts & Cs. I am sure that if they had been willing to talk and BA refused that would have been reported and worked against BA. UNITE/BASSA thought that stamping their feet was better despite WW disabusing them of that tactic in 2008. BASSA has always represented their members badly and is led by people with little acumen. I think you are incorrect in saying BA would not talk.

Pilots on dead fleets being retained at the expense of juniors is as a result of past agreements. It was LIFO in all but name. It is patently absurd to keep surplus top earners and give them a costly conversion course at the expense of an already qualified on type junior (cheaper) pilot but that is an agreement prevalent in aviation. I am sure BASSA would be upset if agreements were ripped up on a whim. I remember reading a well respected BALPA rep saying that it is what protects loyalty and long service and I also remember thinking it is almost unique in that in any other walk of life if you are surplus then bye, bye however long you have worked for the company.
M.Mouse is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2020, 06:27
  #1808 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,835
Originally Posted by Count Niemantznarr View Post
Unlike BALPA, UNITE and the GMB unions had Section 188 notifications issued by BA. Why wasn’t a Section 188 notice given to the pilots...
As both M.Mouse and White Van correctly state Section 188 notices were issued to BALPA.
wiggy is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2020, 06:43
  #1809 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 148
The Section 188 notice was not given to BALPA until a few weeks had passed, as Alex Cruz admitted yesterday when he was in front of the Commons Transport Select Committee. He was unable to explain why BALPA was not included initially.

No doubt for reasons of fairness, BALPA was subsequently given the same treatment. However, the tone had been set with the other unions.
Count Niemantznarr is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2020, 06:50
  #1810 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 148
M.Mouse

Perhaps you can explain how the pilots strike was settled last year, because some BALPA members were quite vocal about it being “unfinished business”?
Count Niemantznarr is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2020, 08:08
  #1811 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 20
The dispute last year was “settled” because the arguments were lost & the group came back to work with their tails between their legs.

The comparisons here between CC & FD redundancy infer equal communications via section 188’s. Pilots never had a threat of dismissal and re-selection for rehire on the first section 188, so very different.

Regarding comments on LIFO, the Transport Select Committee yesterday required data on average ages for the various groups affected by redundancy/CRS compared to those retained. When this data materialises there may well be redress/scrutiny with relation to the 2010 equality act.

Last edited by Survival Cot; 17th Sep 2020 at 09:56. Reason: Add clarity.
Survival Cot is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2020, 12:18
  #1812 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Lemonia. Best Greek in the world
Posts: 1,666
I do not know who the Count and Survival are. However, making inaccurate "factual" comments do not help in Disputes.
Ancient Observer is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2020, 17:06
  #1813 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Home
Posts: 944
I think the Count is/ was a BASSA member heavily involved in the CC Strike, which led to the formation of Mixed Fleet. Possibly not the greatest result for their members.
cessnapete is offline  
Old 17th Sep 2020, 18:39
  #1814 (permalink)  

Controversial, moi?
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,591
Perhaps you can explain how the pilots strike was settled last year, because some BALPA members were quite vocal about it being “unfinished business”?
I have no idea. Complete fiasco from start to finish in my view but totally irrelevant to this debate. Perhaps BASSA were advising BALPA?
M.Mouse is offline  
Old 18th Sep 2020, 08:31
  #1815 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 789
...
According to the Count's own noble writ, he appears to have been "a (relatively) young BA 747 co-pilot" in 1982.

Since then he seems to have morphed into BASSA cabin crew (as Cessnapete suggests) and retired from that as well. He's not listed in Burke's Peerage. Does that explain anything ?

Lordflasheart is offline  
Old 18th Sep 2020, 14:00
  #1816 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Planet Moo Moo
Posts: 1,235
Regarding comments on LIFO, the Transport Select Committee yesterday required data on average ages for the various groups affected by redundancy/CRS compared to those retained. When this data materialises there may well be redress/scrutiny with relation to the 2010 equality act.
Sorry to say that age has little to do with it. BA recruit a selection of ages as it recruits Ab-Initio pilots, Direct entry pilots from other airlines and ex military pilots. So you will find a 'joining age' spread from '20 ish' to '40 ish' without a problem. It also seems that BASSA were quit happy to follow LIFO with respect to the MFU from what can be gather from social media.
Wirbelsturm is offline  
Old 18th Sep 2020, 19:01
  #1817 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 148
Originally Posted by cessnapete View Post
I think the Count is/ was a BASSA member heavily involved in the CC Strike, which led to the formation of Mixed Fleet. Possibly not the greatest result for their members.
With a memory as poor as yours, I trust you no longer have access to a flight deck.

Let me remind you how BA pilots assisted as strike breakers in 2010, which directly led to the formation of Mixed Fleet. Unfortunately the novelty of this new fleet soon wore off on BA flight crews, who started to bid away from MF trips.

As for your own dispute last year, it was a total failure but caused BA to issue a profits warning . No doubt the company have a score to settle there. The cabin crew action in 2010 bought the Legacy crew another ten years, and only ended with the Covid crisis. As for the situation now, feeding the crocodile ten years ago hasnít helped BA pilots at all.
Count Niemantznarr is offline  
Old 18th Sep 2020, 19:44
  #1818 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: London
Posts: 79
Originally Posted by Count Niemantznarr View Post
With a memory as poor as yours, I trust you no longer have access to a flight deck.

Let me remind you how BA pilots assisted as strike breakers in 2010, which directly led to the formation of Mixed Fleet. Unfortunately the novelty of this new fleet soon wore off on BA flight crews, who started to bid away from MF trips.

As for your own dispute last year, it was a total failure but caused BA to issue a profits warning . No doubt the company have a score to settle there. The cabin crew action in 2010 bought the Legacy crew another ten years, and only ended with the Covid crisis. As for the situation now, feeding the crocodile ten years ago hasnít helped BA pilots at all.
Ouch....
I remember that very well and I do wonder what those pilots think of their actions today. I mean, if I volunteered to break my colleagues strike based on a company lie, then years later the company treats me like dirt and disregards my loyalty, then Iíd feel like an absolute buffoon and a hypocrite. They have gotten very wrong a lot of times (BASSA) but one thing we have to give it to them, is that they didnít fall for the company porkies and the pilots did. Sorry, but itís true....

Raph737 is offline  
Old 18th Sep 2020, 21:10
  #1819 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: The Winchester
Posts: 5,835
Originally Posted by Count Niemantznarr View Post
the novelty of this new fleet soon wore off on BA flight crews, who started to bid away from MF trips.
Now you are really talking nonsense....I don't think many of us (certainly on Long Haul) looked at the bid packs and thought "oh that's a mixed fleet trip , I must bid "away"..On the 777 I certainly saw no shortage of senior'ish pilots in places ranging from TLV to SIN.

BTW since for whatever reason "the strike" has been brought into play with: "Let me remind you how BA pilots assisted as strike breakers in 2010" would either you, or perhaps Raph737 who seems to have a view on well BASSA did, care to remind us how many UNITE members operated as Cabin Crew during the strike, and how many of those were BASSA members actively breaking their own strike?

FWIW I operated as PIC 4 longhaul sectors on the 777 over that strike period and the crew composition was typically 50% BASSA ( first two sectors the CSD reported for duty and worked, on the other two the position was filled by a Purser working up), 25% either non-Union Ground Staff or UNITE Ground staff and the other 25% was made up typically by 2 or 3 pilots...so lets not try to perpetuate the myth that the pilots caused the BASSA strike to fail.....plenty of UNITE/BASSA members worked.

Last edited by wiggy; 18th Sep 2020 at 21:23.
wiggy is offline  
Old 18th Sep 2020, 22:38
  #1820 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Lemonia. Best Greek in the world
Posts: 1,666
Count, and others, clearly do not care about Redundancies in 2020.

They are too concerned with re-running the BASSA cock-ups of 2010.

at this rate, this thread should be moved to Jet Blast.
Ancient Observer is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.