Loganair seek Govt. bailout
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If it's a UK domiciled company (which I believe it is), paying its full tax obligation, employing British staff, and serving key UK routes, then I believe they would be deserving of an appropriate shares-for-cash bailout.
If it's a profitable company and they can pony up the equity, I don't see why it's a problem.
If it's a profitable company and they can pony up the equity, I don't see why it's a problem.
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Loganair are a very different case from VS. They fly many routes within the UK essential to smaller cities, towns, islands, and communities. Loganair stepped into the breach when FlyBe folded. I hope they are properly supported by our government.
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If Loganair have sufficient assets against which a loan can be secured then I think such funding should be offered, but I feel that the owners should also be putting up match funding too.
I'd say exactly the same for VS too.
I'd say exactly the same for VS too.
I think we may be headed back to aviation as it was prior to the seventies, with many less people flying. National carriers and those providing a public service like Loganair will have a place. Some business travel, visiting friends and relatives and foreign travel for the well off will be left. But I can't see stag nights in Prague or long haul package tourism coming back very quickly. In a realistic scenario we could see holiday flights starting up again in reasonable numbers in 2021, but this summer even if you have the money where will you be able to go?
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Less sure of that than I was a few days ago. Just been listening to the UK Chief Medical Officer telling us that social distancing restrictions, in one form or another, will be with us into 2021. How does that work with 200 people crammed into a narrow body jet? Less seats? Must equal very much more expensive tickets. Those cheap flights for a stag night in Prague look very far away just now.
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Less sure of that than I was a few days ago. Just been listening to the UK Chief Medical Officer telling us that social distancing restrictions, in one form or another, will be with us into 2021. How does that work with 200 people crammed into a narrow body jet? Less seats? Must equal very much more expensive tickets. Those cheap flights for a stag night in Prague look very far away just now.
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Normal seating under social distancing regs prior to the lockdown stage was working rather well - it will be exactly the same post-lockdown under social distancing regs. Only those displaying symptoms in-flight will need to be re-seated in the empty row at the back and made to wear a mask. Testing is key and everyone will be tested at some stage soon - then those that have not been infected or have the antibodies will be able to travel normally - expect this to be an internationally coordinated operation, with air routes between complying nations reopening as of when they see fit.
You say "Only those displaying symptoms in-flight will need to be re-seated in the empty row at the back and made to wear a mask". I cannot envisage any situation where I would knowingly walk onto an aircraft which night have anyone suspected of having COVID19, let alone anyone displaying symptoms seated at the back. Unless I had been vaccinated or had natural immunity, which is probably 1 year away realistically in terms of mass testing on demand or the release of a vaccine.
Add to that the change in the psychology of the population. Bearing in mind that in China, one of the infection hotspots was public transport. Hardly surprising if the population decided that personal transport was preferable. This is borne out by recent attitude surveys. Bank holiday Gatwick crowds are not going to be popular.
I do agree that there probably will be an international coordinated ruleset to enable commercial aviation to re commence for necessities sake, necessity will probably save Loganair. But I think that by the time normality resumes the industry will be profoundly changed and much reduced. And that is before we start to think about people accepting that cheap travel is unacceptable from a global warming perspective.
EDIT: After writing the above I was reading on Yahoo Finance Mike O'Leary's comments on operating the airline with social distancing rules being impossible. What was interesting were the 85 public comments and how many were accepting of the notion that cheap air travel was now history.
Last edited by macdo; 23rd Apr 2020 at 07:20.
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[QUOTE=macdo;10759658]Less sure of that than I was a few days ago. Just been listening to the UK Chief Medical Officer telling us that social distancing restrictions, in one form or another, will be with us into 2021. How does that work with 200 people crammed into a narrow body jet? Less seats? Must equal very much more expensive tickets. Those cheap flights for a stag night in Prague look very far away just now.[/QUOTE
If average is 60 euro we are talking about roughly 90 euro which is 50% more for a 180 seater, what do you rate much more?
If average is 60 euro we are talking about roughly 90 euro which is 50% more for a 180 seater, what do you rate much more?
Last edited by Flapsupbedsdown; 23rd Apr 2020 at 08:40.
Normal seating under social distancing regs prior to the lockdown stage was working rather well - it will be exactly the same post-lockdown under social distancing regs. Only those displaying symptoms in-flight will need to be re-seated in the empty row at the back and made to wear a mask. Testing is key and everyone will be tested at some stage soon - then those that have not been infected or have the antibodies will be able to travel normally - expect this to be an internationally coordinated operation, with air routes between complying nations reopening as of when they see fit.
New study finds that COVID-19 may be most contagious one to two days before symptoms appear
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/...ymptoms-appear
Sorry, I know tis is somewhat off topic but it is very important. We must not wrongly assume that those who don't display any symptoms are not contagious. This is very relevant to future air travel.
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[QUOTE=Flapsupbedsdown;10760013]
Its a fair question and a 50% uplift has been mentioned as a likely price increase to take out the center seat pax. I don't claim to know how much of a price increase will create a drag on sales, but I bet every airline has an algorithm to work it out. If O'leary says it will not be worth operating the airline with a 50% price rise, I'd tend to believe him. The travelling public, Brits in particular, are very price sensitive over air fares. Speaking for myself, if I can visit my friends in Paris for £100 return for a weekend, I would. At £150, maybe, but less often. That thought process alone defeats the pile it high/sell it cheap business model of the loco's.
Less sure of that than I was a few days ago. Just been listening to the UK Chief Medical Officer telling us that social distancing restrictions, in one form or another, will be with us into 2021. How does that work with 200 people crammed into a narrow body jet? Less seats? Must equal very much more expensive tickets. Those cheap flights for a stag night in Prague look very far away just now.[/QUOTE
If average is 60 euro we are talking about roughly 90 euro which is 50% more for a 180 seater, what do you rate much more?
If average is 60 euro we are talking about roughly 90 euro which is 50% more for a 180 seater, what do you rate much more?
Frankly I am sceptical that leaving the middle seat free would solve the problem of contagion. It might help a bit, but a lot of people are travelling with family and would logically be sitting together together anyway. It is the people behind and in front that I would be worried about. The only thing that could help is everyone wearing face masks and keeping them on! The analysis of Air China 112 during the Sars crisis showed that anyone within a couple of seat rows of an infectious person is at risk.
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Off-topic - To me the question regarding pax seating in airliners has the wrong focus. There are no such restrictions/worries regarding seating on trains and buses, however the Govt have advised against use of public transport unless essential. The fact is, you can't realistically "solve" this problem on any form of public transport, including aircraft. If face masks are any use - still being argued over - then precautions such as wearing masks/gloves, health check prior to boarding, suspension of in-flight service etc would be the only way of mitigating this.
Back on-topic, I hope Loganair get the suppport they need, if they do need it. The Highlands & Islands rely on LM for pretty vital connections that are essential for healthcare, business and services.
Back on-topic, I hope Loganair get the suppport they need, if they do need it. The Highlands & Islands rely on LM for pretty vital connections that are essential for healthcare, business and services.
The rubber jungle could be re-purposed, although some form of exhalation exhaust to the outside might also be needed.
I sincerely hope Loganair survive as a much needed supplier of an essential service.
I sincerely hope Loganair survive as a much needed supplier of an essential service.
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True that. The rubber jungle's never used anyway! Especially as most of LM's flights don't go high enough for their use!
Alternatively have the pax take turns at hanging oot the windae. Might get a bit cold though at 10k/200-odd kts wind blast. In all seriousness, all the best to LM.
Alternatively have the pax take turns at hanging oot the windae. Might get a bit cold though at 10k/200-odd kts wind blast. In all seriousness, all the best to LM.
Telsboy you are wrong to say that there are no worries or restrictions regarding seating on trains and busses. There is a serious risk and that is why for example the government in Germany has introduced a rule that everyone wear face masks on public transport. But it only works if everyone does it. The basic fact that a lot of people don't seem to have understood is that the mask provides the wearer with very little protection, but everyone else is considerably better protected if that person is infectious. The example I was given was that if you get on your packed train wearing a mask you are probably reducing your risk by less then 10%, but if you and everyone else is wearing masks your risk is reduced by over 90%. If that is true then I think it is very relevant to how airlines restart their services and in turn to the overall topic, which is should the government bailout Loganair and of course other airlines.
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Lederhosen, completely agree with everything you say there, my point being that with all the fuss being made about seating on airliners, there's not the same attention on the same issue on other forms of public transport. I'm not a medical bod so will happily admit my total ignorance on the subject, however I am getting rather fed up with the "can't do" attitude prevailing so widely as this disruption to daily life carries on. There are ways and means of restoring some semblance of normality, it won't be perfect however mitigations such as distancing where able, if masks/gloves/antibac etc can help then we use them, etc. This will help transport operations of all forms restart, workplaces operate and retail businesses reopen to some extent. We just need to think things carefully through. Airlines are a key enabler and contributor to the economy and should be supported as such.