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AA sacks 7,000

Old 13th Aug 2002, 09:40
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AA sacks 7,000

From the BBC:

Also, US Airways has been given access to $78million of funds from the US Courts:
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Old 13th Aug 2002, 13:37
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Look as though either the A300`s or the F100`s are going! Why do none of the good rumours in this business come true, but the bad ones although vehemently denied by management until the press release, come true! Any clue as to the impact on flt ops! Good luck folks!
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Old 13th Aug 2002, 13:57
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F100 plus 763 are to go.
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Old 13th Aug 2002, 14:01
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Unhappy how many pilots are going?

(from NY Times)

American Airlines to Cut 7,000 Jobs

American Airlines will cut 7,000 jobs by March 2003, retire
74 aircraft and defer 35 aircraft deliveries in 2002, the
company said on its Website on Tuesday. The new initiatives,
coupled with those already implemented, will result in annual
operating savings of more than $1.1 billion, the company


So, out of those 7000, how many are pilots?
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Old 13th Aug 2002, 14:21
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The 9 leased B767-300 ex TWA are going shortly.

The 49 AA B767-300 are to have standardised 2 class cabins.

The 43 AA B777's are to have standardised 3 class cabins.

Raw Pilot numbers could be reduced by up to 800.
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Old 13th Aug 2002, 14:31
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This is what the pilots heard:

Due to system reductions and fleet simplification, it will be necessary to furlough up to 550 pilots (Oct02 - Mar03).

Furloughs will be done in accordance with the Seniority Integration Agreement, affecting the most junior pilots on the combined seniority list.

A “bridge to retirement” will be made available for up to 450 of the most senior pilots. This is part of the TWA transition agreement. The agreement has a limited duration and is also limited in the number of pilots eligible and to those already eligible for retirement.
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Old 13th Aug 2002, 19:29
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Numbers are basically correct. Up to 550 pilots to be furloughed over five months beginning in October 2002. Up to 450 early outs to be bid on seniority basis before furloughs begin.

All F100's to be leaving starting third quarter of 2003 over approximately a two year time frame.

Last edited by dudly; 13th Aug 2002 at 19:47.
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Old 13th Aug 2002, 21:28
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The rumour is that most of the pilots at the bottom of the list are from the TWA merger. Good luck folks.
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Old 15th Aug 2002, 15:00
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You're not wrong Lewis, from St Louis Post-Dispatch(15/8):

"Former Trans World Airlines pilots now flying for American Airlines are calling on that carrier and Congress to revisit their complaints about a seniority system that puts them first in line for layoffs.
Roughly 60 percent of TWA's 2,100 pilots were placed at the bottom of the seniority list at American, even though most had substantially more years of service than the American crew members directly above them.

As a result, the ex-TWA pilots will bear the full impact of the 550 pilot layoffs American announced as part of a major restructuring this week. Those layoffs will affect former TWA pilots hired as early as 1996.

"TWA brought value to American," said Jeff Darnall, one of the 40 or so pilots who rallied Wednesday at Lambert Field to voice their concerns. "To treat its employees as having less value than newly hired employees is arrogant and unfair."

Most former TWA flight attendants also lost their seniority in the change of ownership. American has warned that fleet and schedule cuts will create 2,500 excess flight attendant positions by the end of the year, putting those ex-TWA workers first in line for furloughs.

American announced Tuesday that it would reduce its work force by 6 percent -- or 7,000 people -- cut capacity by 9 percent and retire 83 aircraft in a bid to reverse losses and respond to changing industry economics.

More than 300 ex-TWA pilots out of 2,100 based at Lambert were laid off in the months after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11.

Pilot Sally Young said the latest round of cuts would be devastating to workers assigned to American's St. Louis hub.

"We are now facing a 40 percent reduction . . . in the St. Louis employee group, as opposed to 4 percent for the American employee group," said Young, who joined TWA in 1989. "This is neither fair nor equitable to the St. Louis employees and the St. Louis area," she said.

Officials for the Allied Pilots Association and the Association of Professional Flight Attendants, the unions representing cockpit and cabin crews at American, noted this week that the former TWA workers might be without jobs already were it not for American.

TWA was running low on cash before its deal with American, and might have gone out of business had it tried to remain independent.


In announcing American's broader restructuring Tuesday, Chairman Donald Carty acknowledged that the company's long-standing business model seemed to be broken.

"It's our expectation that demand will be very soft and the economy will remain uncertain for some time," Carty said in a message to employees. "Make no mistake about it: Change at American will continue."

Change was a constant at TWA in the decade leading up to its deal with American. Despite three bankruptcies, six management teams and an unbroken string of losses, the airline remained aloft.

Pilots, flight attendants and other employees who accepted concessions to keep TWA in business thought last year's deal with American would bring them secure futures, said Darnall, founder and president of TWA Pilots Inc., a group that represents the interests of ex-TWA workers.

But the union that represented TWA's pilots, the Air Line Pilots Association, was unable to reach an agreement with the union that represents American's pilots on how the two work forces would combine.

As a result, American's union, the Allied Pilots Association, unilaterally adopted its own seniority list, which put six out of 10 TWA pilots at the bottom of the list.

Other, more senior TWA pilots were put higher up on the list, subject to certain rules and restrictions.

TWA's flight attendants ran into the same sort of problems. They are mounting a legal challenge in federal court in New York.

Former U.S. Rep Jim Talent, the Republican candidate for the U.S. Senate, spoke at Wednesday's event. He said he was surprised to learn that the approach American's unions took to the integration of the seniority lists was legal.

"This is an example of a system that failed because it failed to be fair," Talent said in a prepared statement. "The American Airlines officials in Fort Worth should agree to go back to the negotiating table and design a compromise on the seniority issue so that former TWA pilots and flight attendants in Missouri get a fair hearing and a fair deal."

Dave Coyne, a TWA captain who lost 12 years of seniority in the American deal, said putting highly skilled, veteran workers below newer employees makes no sense, especially in a business where experience and safety are directly related.

"In any other industry," he said, "when one company acquires another company, they don't put all the employees of the acquired company in the mailroom and say, 'Good luck. Work your way back up.'"
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Old 15th Aug 2002, 18:44
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Red face

For the TWA guys that feel the way you do, I'm sure American will be more than happy to sell you back your Airline (at a discount). For the rest of the TWA folks, we (american included) are all in a mess and I don't think RJs are the answer.
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Old 15th Aug 2002, 19:38
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<TWA brought value...> to American?

The "low-cost" model is the name of the game, folks, like it or not...and many won't.

AND, more RJ's absolutely ARE the answer...the pawning off of lower density routes to Eagle will lower costs substantially, whether the APA likes it or not...and they certainly will not.

Last edited by 411A; 15th Aug 2002 at 19:43.
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Old 15th Aug 2002, 20:33
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Actually, the only people that like the RJs are management and the pilots that aren't employed by a major carrier.
Let's see, we have a shortage of gates, the airways are saturated and you want to bring in more aircraft with less capacity. Yes, that will go over about as well as the RJs New York shuttle.

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Old 16th Aug 2002, 04:33
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Even though Mr. Carty must be smiling while the APA's Merger Committee battles the TWA's Committee over the slick "staple job", with the more radical Merger members helping upper mgmt. reach a typical upper mgmt goal-"divide and conquer" - it looks like many of the (already and soon-to-be) furloughed employees will be handy "hostages" for Mr. Carty's short-term financial goals. By the way, how many years will Carty stay with American, following the corporate battles?

Will APA show as much concern for the out-of-seniority laid off people who were with TWA, as they would for original American? Their dues come from the entire pilot group, unless I'm mistaken. I've been through a merger years ago, and understand how Merger Committee self-righteousness often seeks any justification for its goals and anxieties regarding all Captain seats and especially widebody bid awards for Captains, i.e. "We had expectations when hired...". One can almost hear the sad violin music in the background.

I realize that many line pilots don't always agree (in public) with their own Merger Committee's goals and methods.
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Old 16th Aug 2002, 16:11
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TWA pilots are used to being screwed by management.

Nothing has changed.
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Old 16th Aug 2002, 16:44
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B&W wrote
"the airways are saturated and you want to bring in more aircraft with less capacity"

Yes, that is exactly the point of the exercise. You put RJ's on the routes that are being served by fuel guzzling dinosaurs which are operating half full. Now you still move the same number of pax, but in a FULL plane, which also burns a fraction of the fuel. Some days the volume of aircraft will be higher, but for the most part the idea is to run the same service but with full aircraft.
Tell me please how running a F100 or similar at 30-40% capacity makes more economic sense for an airline than running an RJ at 85-95%!
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Old 16th Aug 2002, 21:02
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Actually, Mr M..............
Our F-100s hold 87 pax vs 70 pax for the new RJ.
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Old 16th Aug 2002, 21:19
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Yes...and crewed by rather expensive APA guys instead of cheaper Eagle crews.

The ONLY way for companies to move forward is to cut costs, and the expensive crews will have to go, like it or not, and certainly most will not.

The high cost of "beaks above the ground effect" pilots have finally come home to roost at many US carriers. They will just have to pull in their collective belts and accept the inevitable, otherwise, no jobs at all...period.

Tough beans.
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Old 16th Aug 2002, 22:39
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That's why you have pilots at the majors and pilots that WANT to be at the majors. If you're not there already, when and if you get there.............don't you think you'll have earned a decent salary.
By the time you add up all the training, experiences, all the restarts at different'll have earned that salary. You're getting paid for that 30 seconds of expertise needed when an emergency occurs. If you don't think, at that time, the company's money is well spent................then I wouldn't want my family flying with you.
You should be a professional, don't let anyone sell you short. Okay, I'm off my soap box.
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Old 17th Aug 2002, 00:41
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Hmm, ...the 'ole "I deserve it" argument.
You get only what the company can afford to pay. Yes the APA signed an agreement, but if no cash in 'de bank, no dinero, comprendo?
If the company is driven to the wall due to unfortunate circumstances, ALL employees will be out of a job, not just pilots.
Wake up.
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Old 17th Aug 2002, 05:17
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Hey 411..........what kind of single-engine did you say you flew??? Why don't you work for free, then the company will have more money to give to the CEO.
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