Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Virgin Atlantic

Old 7th May 2020, 11:53
  #401 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by James7 View Post
When times are tough the first item to go is the shiny new car sitting in the garage. Virgin should dump all those expensive new aircraft, they are all leased at around $1m/month, the 747 is a fraction of that. Fuel is cheap. ETOPS maintenance is very expensive.
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1399391
$1 m a month sounds like a long term financial lease. Ironically, it is actually easier (and cheaper) to get rid of owned aircraft than leased aircraft (under normal economic circumstances). Owned aircraft you can just sell, leased aircraft require all sorts of negotiation and legal work, especially if the lease has not expired yet... Even when the lease term is over, there are lots of loopholes to jump through.
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Old 7th May 2020, 12:24
  #402 (permalink)  
 
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And then there’s the cost of maintenance on and old 747 with 4 engines, compared to an A350 let’s say.
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Old 7th May 2020, 12:25
  #403 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by James7 View Post
When times are tough the first item to go is the shiny new car sitting in the garage. Virgin should dump all those expensive new aircraft, they are all leased at around $1m/month, the 747 is a fraction of that. Fuel is cheap. ETOPS maintenance is very expensive
It is well rumoured that governments are at least considering, if not demanding, that company loans and/or bail out are conditional on a reduced carbon footprint in the future. whilst the older gas-guzzlers may be cheaper to own, they may not satisfy the requirements for environmental consideration. I fear we may be seeing a quicker twilight for the B747 (and possibly A380) as passenger aircraft.
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Old 7th May 2020, 14:28
  #404 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by lurkio View Post
Maybe a lot of the 747 fleet pilots were more senior and riding it until the end and may have taken part time. That would account for a higher figure per aircraft. Still a great shame to see them go as they were awesome to operate (and fly).
If crews are part time the crews per aircraft ratio remain the same just the number of actual pilots would be higher. So if 2 Captains are 50% that makes 1 Captain.
747 en route LGW-GLA
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Old 7th May 2020, 15:31
  #405 (permalink)  
 
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At the rate Virgin are losing cash, the leasing companies may be getting the aircraft back sooner than later. Virgin could clear out all the seats and use the 747 as freighters, they would not even have the expense of putting the seats back. A few airlines are doing just that, filing the cabin with light freight.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhor.../#601af64a6093

https://www.forbes.com/sites/cathybu.../#9eb0e517c688

https://theloadstar.com/air-freight-...ighters-rises/

Last edited by James7; 7th May 2020 at 16:10.
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Old 7th May 2020, 15:33
  #406 (permalink)  
 
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One of considerations that both BA and Virgin, along with other airlines, must take into account when they make pilots compulsory redundant is to use a procedure that is fair and reasonable under all circumstances. In other words they should identify a fair selection criteria which identifies those pilots they retain and those they make compulsory redundant.

They must not discriminate. There is no doubt that LIFO is a straight forward simple system. However, since the introduction of the equality and anti-discrimination legislation LIFO cannot be used as the only methodology. The reason being that it is probable that the most likely individuals selected for redundancy will be young and this will amount to age discrimination and allow an individual/s to have a pop at a company for indirect age discrimination.

It is important that fair criteria are used to select individuals for redundancy. If LIFO is one of the benchmarks used it should not be weighted more heavily than other criteria such as disciplinary records, attendance records (Absence for pregnancy should be ignored), work performance, qualifications, experience etc.

Companies have the flexibility to choose the most appropriate criteria to reflect the skills they wish to retain. Ideally selection criteria should be entirely objective but if qualitative criteria are also used they must be supported by evidence to avoid complaints of bias and opinion.

As an example, it is probable that if a company wanted to get rid of a whole fleet – B747 – then that would not be seen as being discriminatory because those positions would no longer be available. However, if a company was to make all the most junior captains and first officers on a fleet, (based solely on LIFO), redundant because they were reducing the numbers of aircraft operated, then that would probably be seen by the courts to be discriminatory. It would also allow those pilots the right of appeal against their compulsory redundancy.

Skilful negotiation is going to be required by pilot representatives in both BA and Virgin if they are to get the best deal they can for their pilots.
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Old 7th May 2020, 16:30
  #407 (permalink)  
 
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A process used for a bunch of engineers about twenty years ago was a points system based on a combination of LIFO, qualifications and (initially) sickness and disciplinary record

It was later agreed that sickness and disciplinary record were unfair and open to questionable intepretation.
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Old 7th May 2020, 17:33
  #408 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 101917 View Post
As an example, it is probable that if a company wanted to get rid of a whole fleet – B747 – then that would not be seen as being discriminatory because those positions would no longer be available. However, if a company was to make all the most junior captains and first officers on a fleet, (based solely on LIFO), redundant because they were reducing the numbers of aircraft operated, then that would probably be seen by the courts to be discriminatory. It would also allow those pilots the right of appeal against their compulsory redundancy.
The key word there is solely. That is exactly how Flybe were going to chop people in 2013. However they used a matrix with lifo being the most dominant factor. God knows how BA want to do it (aside from an equal number of Captains and FOs) because Balpa are not telling us at the moment, I’m sure at the equivalent point in this process back then we already knew who was at risk.
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Old 7th May 2020, 18:22
  #409 (permalink)  
 
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Can anyone tell me the maximum age for a Type Rating Conversion Course in VAA...is it 57 or 62?
If still 57 then the B744 Captains will be gardening soon,
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Old 7th May 2020, 18:35
  #410 (permalink)  
 
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Virgin Atlantic’s planned 3,150 job cuts will show the airline is taking “self-help” measures and help it to win financial support from either the British government or a private sector investor, an internal memo to pilots seen by Reuters said.In an internal memo dated May 6 which was addressed “Dear Pilots”, the airline said that it only needed 550 pilots out of about 1,000 currently, and that shedding jobs would help it win new investment.

“In order for us to qualify for financial support from HM Government or the private sector it is critical that we demonstrate that we have taken all self-help measures in a timely fashion so we can secure the funding we need to survive,” the memo said.

When asked about the memo, Virgin, which is in a consultation period with unions over the redundancies, said it continued to explore options for additional funding with the government and private investors.

Sad times.
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Old 7th May 2020, 21:07
  #411 (permalink)  
 
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A320 Baby...the point is...when the retirement age was increased to 65 VAA conveniently forgot to raise the maximum age for a type conversion course from 57 to 62 (3 years remaining). This gave the company an 8 year window to get rid of senior B744 pilots should the need arise.
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Old 8th May 2020, 07:49
  #412 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by xray one View Post
James7 wrote:



please can you back this up with solid evidence? If not just stop spouting your 'best guess'
Richard Branson : "The challenge right now is that there is no money coming in and lots going out."

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/r...-a4418496.html

No spouting required. Same for most airlines as previously stated.
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Old 8th May 2020, 09:03
  #413 (permalink)  
 
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A320 Baby...the point is...when the retirement age was increased to 65 VAA conveniently forgot to raise the maximum age for a type conversion course from 57 to 62 (3 years remaining). This gave the company an 8 year window to get rid of senior B744 pilots should the need arise.
An anomaly which I understand was fixed several years ago when the 787 introduction was under way. It's no longer an issue.
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Old 8th May 2020, 09:18
  #414 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by procede View Post
$1 m a month sounds like a long term financial lease. Ironically, it is actually easier (and cheaper) to get rid of owned aircraft than leased aircraft (under normal economic circumstances). Owned aircraft you can just sell, leased aircraft require all sorts of negotiation and legal work, especially if the lease has not expired yet... Even when the lease term is over, there are lots of loopholes to jump through.
Right now, whoever had their engines under power-by-hour is laughing their way to the bank. Or well, probably the rest of plane is still under monthly lease, so it's more like they cry somewhat less than their competitors...

Last edited by keitaidenwa; 8th May 2020 at 09:18. Reason: typo
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Old 8th May 2020, 12:09
  #415 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by keitaidenwa View Post
Right now, whoever had their engines under power-by-hour is laughing their way to the bank. Or well, probably the rest of plane is still under monthly lease, so it's more like they cry somewhat less than their competitors...
The power by the hour only covers spares and maintenance costs. You still need to pay a fixed amount for the engine itself. I think the extra savings will thus be quite limited.
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Old 9th May 2020, 11:13
  #416 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by keitaidenwa View Post
Right now, whoever had their engines under power-by-hour is laughing their way to the bank. Or well, probably the rest of plane is still under monthly lease, so it's more like they cry somewhat less than their competitors...
The only thing that anyone can say for certain is that the bigger the airline/group the higher the likelihood of gaining attractive terms from its creditors. Smaller airlines will conversely be allowed to fail.
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Old 9th May 2020, 11:27
  #417 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by MCDU2 View Post
The only thing that anyone can say for certain is that the bigger the airline/group the higher the likelihood of gaining attractive terms from its creditors. Smaller airlines will conversely be allowed to fail.
This is not necessarily the case. Creditors will lean towards those companies who can repay their debt and service it properly, irrespective of size. The exception ( and perhaps what you are alluding to) is where lenders are so heavily over-exposed that allowing the company to fail will immediately crystallize enormous losses.Here there is a willingness to kick the can down the road; keep it going with the hope it gets better or the tough descisions will at least fall on someone else's shoulders. Hence the rise of zombie companies who cannot realistically pay back their debt and can't make real profits because of their debt servicing. In our industry I would cite Thomas Cook Group, and currently Norwegian. Many many others are heading down the same path.
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Old 9th May 2020, 12:23
  #418 (permalink)  
 
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Sky news are reporting at 1250 today that, Virgin Atlantic Airways has put advisers on standby to handle a potential administration as it races to secure a £500m rescue that would enable Sir Richard Branson’s flagship company to survive the coronavirus pandemic.
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Old 9th May 2020, 16:35
  #419 (permalink)  
 
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Saw a vs 330 on its way to donnie today, surprised not already parked away from an expensive lhr.
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Old 9th May 2020, 17:05
  #420 (permalink)  
 
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Hence the rise of zombie companies who cannot realistically pay back their debt
No surprise really that organisations are now run like most countries of the world.
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