Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Virgin Atlantic

Old 27th Apr 2020, 09:20
  #361 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: heathrow
Posts: 275
In a previous incarnation, I used to work for a Bank, lending millions to companies.

In putting together a proposal to my directors, they would want to know.

1. Is the lending properly secured.
2. If/when the company goes bust how quickly can we turn the secured assets into cash.
3. For taking the “risk”, how much can we charge in interest and fees.

we were often dealing with loss making entities who had a business turnaround plan, which is why they needed the funds in the first place. I would guess with Virgin, the problem may be no 2, Necker and second hand airframes may be slow moving sellers.

Virgin has been my long haul carrier of choice for many years, and really hope they can get through this one way or another.
cjhants is offline  
Old 27th Apr 2020, 12:06
  #362 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: London UK
Posts: 6,493
There are other money diverters as well. Even Delta has apparently got a claim on a large sum, USD 200m, relating to their JV, described by the Delta CEO here :

https://www.forbes.com/sites/willhor.../#3202f14630d2

now it's not particularly apparent what this is for, but if it's "related to their JV" it doesn't sound like payment for any goods received, which in any event would never be allowed to get up to that level anyway. The statement there that it's an amount "the airlines agreed earlier this year" is a bit opaque about it. JVs do not normally require one party to pay the other large sums. Is this just some further part of a tax management money-go-round ?
WHBM is online now  
Old 27th Apr 2020, 14:43
  #363 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: England
Posts: 0
Mr Branson is very careful not to make too much of a taxable profit but is very keen on collecting his dividend from his brand licensing company based in a tax haven.

When it comes to taxpayer funded loans the back of the queue is clearly visible.

Virgin Group Holdings payments appears in Virgin Atlantic's accounts as a "marketing expense". Virgin Enterprises collects royalties from global Virgin brands. In 2018, it reported revenues of £75 million, £51 million pre-tax profit and paid £9 million corporation tax. It paid an £85 million dividend to its sole shareholder: Virgin Group Holdings.







WWW
Wee Weasley Welshman is offline  
Old 27th Apr 2020, 15:51
  #364 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: London UK
Posts: 6,493
WWW : Could you calibrate what your chart is showing please (I am guessing it is showing PreTax margin as a % of revenue).

Any commercial bank you showed that to would run a mile from the red company.

A question we may ask is why the difference, given BA's long-established pension liabilities, its substantial short haul and domestic operations which everyone tells us are always unprofitable (though those too are subject to creative accounting), significant in-house UK-based overhaul facilities, and all the posts on here about overpaid Nigels, bloated Waterside bureaucracy, etc.
WHBM is online now  
Old 27th Apr 2020, 16:41
  #365 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 860
Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
WWW : Could you calibrate what your chart is showing please (I am guessing it is showing PreTax margin as a % of revenue).

Any commercial bank you showed that to would run a mile from the red company.

A question we may ask is why the difference, given BA's long-established pension liabilities, its substantial short haul and domestic operations which everyone tells us are always unprofitable (though those too are subject to creative accounting), significant in-house UK-based overhaul facilities, and all the posts on here about overpaid Nigels, bloated Waterside bureaucracy, etc.
Three words; economies of scale. I think you’ll find VS pilots are better paid than their BA counterparts in any case, we’re also more productive too (controversial topic).
RexBanner is offline  
Old 27th Apr 2020, 17:04
  #366 (permalink)  
KYT
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 41
Originally Posted by WHBM View Post
A question we may ask is why the difference, given BA's long-established pension liabilities,
I seem to remember BA had a massive pension black hole debt....what happened to it?

Do they still have it, were they bailed out, did they find reinvestment, was it written off, or were the Company allowed to work off the debt? Whichever it was, itís a bluddy good job there wasnít a Corona virus outbreak back then, otherwise the Government might have had to bail THEM out, heaven forbid!!!
KYT is offline  
Old 27th Apr 2020, 19:03
  #367 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pastures new
Posts: 301
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
Three words; economies of scale. I think youíll find VS pilots are better paid than their BA counterparts in any case, weíre also more productive too (controversial topic).
Hi Rex,

Could you explain to a military man how you calculate the productivity of a civvy pilot? Apologies for the thread drift
kintyred is offline  
Old 27th Apr 2020, 19:28
  #368 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Botswana
Posts: 860
Well without knowing the ins and outs of Virginís scheduling agreement I do know that they are limited to 700 hours a year, whereas we at BA are up to 900 and in very many cases on Long Haul we hit it. However these are (relatively speaking of course) marginal gains for Flight Ops and do not begin to explain the large disparity between the operating margin at BA and VS, thereís other factors at play there.
RexBanner is offline  
Old 27th Apr 2020, 19:47
  #369 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: England
Posts: 359
Kintyred. Legal limits on duty and flying hours are stipulated by EU regs, 900hrs a year and 100hrs a month (there are other limits). Local agreements may limit these to lower values. So if you are paid a salary for flying 900 hrs a year but only rostered for 500 hrs, the company is not getting full value from its contract with you. I flew with a holiday charter, where high monthly hours were achieved over the summer but winter work was pretty sparse so no more than 600 hrs was usual for us. With someone like BA/Virgin, who have more constant work across the year, 900/700 is achievable and therefore their pilots Achieve high productivity.
Capt Scribble is online now  
Old 27th Apr 2020, 20:19
  #370 (permalink)  

Controversial, moi?
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,590
I seem to remember BA had a massive pension black hole debt....what happened to it?

Do they still have it, were they bailed out, did they find reinvestment, was it written off, or were the Company allowed to work off the debt?
Over the past years BA have been paying large sums into the scheme to pay off the deficit. They continue to do so. The last iteration of the defined benefit scheme was finally closed to existing members a couple of years ago having been unavailable to new joiners for some time before that.
M.Mouse is online now  
Old 28th Apr 2020, 05:54
  #371 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: London
Posts: 116
All depends on the fleet , at BA on the 787 I was worked VERY hard almost to the point of questioning what I was doing in aviation, As I thought it would have been much better than the 320 .
I still have mates at BA now and they donít understand that the lifestyle on LH will be worse than the 4 year seniority they have on SH . Certainly get the productivity out of you unless your ultra senior PP24 But those days are well and truly over
Riskybis is offline  
Old 28th Apr 2020, 15:14
  #372 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 98
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
Well without knowing the ins and outs of Virginís scheduling agreement I do know that they are limited to 700 hours a year, whereas we at BA are up to 900 and in very many cases on Long Haul we hit it. However these are (relatively speaking of course) marginal gains for Flight Ops and do not begin to explain the large disparity between the operating margin at BA and VS, thereís other factors at play there.
Its almost impossible to make a like for like comparison. Many trips that both airlines fly are crewed differently, at least half a dozen I can think of in Virgin are 2 pilots/1 local night/ 3 day trips, that BA do with either 3 pilots or 2 local nights downroute. Virgin pilots may fly less hours but with the limited network and different industrial agreements, pilots on the Airbus in particular will have done all 750 hours in the seat in the last few years.
Tags is offline  
Old 28th Apr 2020, 18:02
  #373 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Pastures new
Posts: 301
Originally Posted by Capt Scribble View Post
Kintyred. Legal limits on duty and flying hours are stipulated by EU regs, 900hrs a year and 100hrs a month (there are other limits). Local agreements may limit these to lower values. So if you are paid a salary for flying 900 hrs a year but only rostered for 500 hrs, the company is not getting full value from its contract with you. I flew with a holiday charter, where high monthly hours were achieved over the summer but winter work was pretty sparse so no more than 600 hrs was usual for us. With someone like BA/Virgin, who have more constant work across the year, 900/700 is achievable and therefore their pilots Achieve high productivity.
All very interesting. I hope the accountants never take a look in my logbook!
kintyred is offline  
Old 28th Apr 2020, 18:42
  #374 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Centre of Universe
Posts: 141
I somehow doubt any 750 or 900 hour limit is going to be an issue and Aircrew will have bigger issues to worry about.
GKOC41 is offline  
Old 29th Apr 2020, 12:09
  #375 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: EU
Posts: 25
Virgin Atlantic announces 90 cargo flights per week starting in May.

https://virginatlanticcargo.com/cont...rgoflights.pdf
virgin mary is offline  
Old 29th Apr 2020, 14:38
  #376 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: in my own world
Posts: 134
Hopefully the Government get the message as well.

xray one is online now  
Old 29th Apr 2020, 15:27
  #377 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Location: London
Posts: 116
Originally Posted by xray one View Post
Hopefully the Government get the message as well.
fingers crossed pal
Riskybis is offline  
Old 30th Apr 2020, 08:17
  #378 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: VenusVille
Posts: 312
https://www.headforpoints.com/2020/0...nment-bailout/

squarecrow is offline  
Old 5th May 2020, 07:07
  #379 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: Ireland
Posts: 5
Any update on VS situation? Are the 90 cargo flights a week enough to help tide them over for some time?
5strypes is offline  
Old 5th May 2020, 12:34
  #380 (permalink)  
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Peripatetic
Posts: 10,715
Virgin Atlantic to cease operations out of Gatwick and cut one third of staff, 3150 in total.

Gatwick slots to be retained pending the future. At least some of 747 fleet to be retired.

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavir...vival-11983452

Last edited by ORAC; 5th May 2020 at 12:55.
ORAC is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.