Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Virgin Atlantic

Old 24th Apr 2020, 14:03
  #301 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Surrey
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Sorry, I should clarify: I have heard that its really for the licence to use the Virgin brand. My point being, that would be sent to Virgin Group, which in turn would pay Virgin Group Holdings Ltd, which is based in the tax free BVIs. I cannot see it being only for marketing as it's higher than the entire employee remuneration bill, and almost as much as they spent on fuel, which just seems too much. All this to say, if it's truly just a way of getting money to the BVIs tax free, then I can see why the government would be digging in. But if it's not, surely thats a bill that can easily be reduced (surley the Virgin brand is strong enough not to need to spend that amount?) and makes their finances look a lot more healthy, increasing their chances of getting a loan?
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Old 24th Apr 2020, 14:22
  #302 (permalink)  
 
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SRB was quite happy to say that BA ought to be allowed to go bust back in 2009 when BA were having a bad time. Example of "things you wish you never said"?
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Old 24th Apr 2020, 15:09
  #303 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
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Originally Posted by esscee View Post
SRB was quite happy to say that BA ought to be allowed to go bust back in 2009 when BA were having a bad time. Example of "things you wish you never said"?
After the way under the Marshall/King leadership BA acted by instituting the dirty tricks campaign against VS are you surprised that there is little love lost.
For that disreputable action BA fined a paltry 610k with 4.5m costs.
that 610k went straight back to the airline but In reality the losses and disruption was much more.
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Old 24th Apr 2020, 16:33
  #304 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
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Just remember that when Branson was a young kid on the block he took huge risks in setting up a number of companies. Some failed, some, such as Virgin Atlantic succeeded.

Since 1984 he has given good employment to many thousands of individuals and provided a product on his aircraft that exceeds that of many other airlines, including BA.

Virgin Atlantic survived the BA led dirty tricks in the early 90s when they and other national carriers tried to force them out of business.

Virgin Atlantic does not have the not so subtle backing of the Government, who in the early to mid-80s wrote off BA's massive debt so that the airline could effectively start again under Lord King.

If you think BA's service is bad just watch it deteriorate if there is no competition. The US airlines are even worse than BA and do not provide effective competition.
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Old 24th Apr 2020, 17:04
  #305 (permalink)  
MDS
 
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It's all well and good being sentimental about VA, but if the airline isn't profitable then why would the taxpayer (or commercial entity) give them a loan?

If they were losing money hand over fist without the pandemic, a loan certainly won't change a thing.

PS. I believe competition is a great thing, but as with all business, viability = profitability.
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Old 24th Apr 2020, 17:18
  #306 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
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Can I ask why?
I did explain my reasons but it appears an excitable mod removed it...?

Nothing to do with job losses, I just prefer Virgin to BA all over, Better prices better service offered and generally having flown with both airlines regularly, I personally prefer the Virgin option as I feel its a nicer experience

Re am I happy to pay more tax to bail out virgin, that's a ridiculous remark did you vote on the easy jet bailout? or the Banks bailout ?? no didn't think so, did you pay more tax because of it? no
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Old 24th Apr 2020, 17:52
  #307 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
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Originally Posted by MDS View Post
It's all well and good being sentimental about VA, but if the airline isn't profitable then why would the taxpayer (or commercial entity) give them a loan?

If they were losing money hand over fist without the pandemic, a loan certainly won't change a thing.

PS. I believe competition is a great thing, but as with all business, viability = profitability.
I know its a small detail but Virgin Atlantic is VS not VA. The rest makes sense.
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Old 24th Apr 2020, 18:19
  #308 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Originally Posted by Livesinafield View Post
I did explain my reasons but it appears an excitable mod removed it...?

Nothing to do with job losses, I just prefer Virgin to BA all over, Better prices better service offered and generally having flown with both airlines regularly, I personally prefer the Virgin option as I feel its a nicer experience

Re am I happy to pay more tax to bail out virgin, that's a ridiculous remark did you vote on the easy jet bailout? or the Banks bailout ?? no didn't think so, did you pay more tax because of it? no
Not yet you didn't. There will be plenty of extra tax to pay when we have got over this !
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Old 24th Apr 2020, 18:57
  #309 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
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MDS has posted more poorly researched bollox

If they were losing money hand over fist without the pandemic, a loan certainly won't change a thing.
The last financial report gave a loss of 26 Million on a 2.8 Billion turnover, hardly 'losing money hand over fist'. One of the main reasons for this was the ongoing problem with the RR engine on the 789. At times we would be down to 4 grounded out of a fleet of 17. This was a problem not of Virgin's making. We needed to retain fuel thirsty A346s and buy 4 A332s to make up the shortfall.

'lies, damn lies and statistics'



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Old 24th Apr 2020, 19:18
  #310 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
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Its all relative of course. In that year what profit did BA, EasyJet and Ryanair make?
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Old 24th Apr 2020, 20:43
  #311 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cashash View Post
Why wouldnt it just be marketing? - after all I would have thought that most airlines have massive advertising budgets. Emirates seems to spend more on marketing around the globe than on actual aircraft.
EasyJet spent 157m in 2019 on a turnover of 6bn, and in 2018 BA spent 509m in 2018 on 13bn turnover.

So Virgin's 500m against a 2bn (ish) turnover looks high in comparison



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Old 24th Apr 2020, 22:58
  #312 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
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As I understand it so far in terms of Government Financial Support...............

Lufthansa negotiating to get €10B (includes aid for Swiss & Brussels Airlines)
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKCN2252Y6

AF/KLM to get €7B
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/air-f...182631506.html

easyJet to get €500M
https://www.theguardian.com/business...asury-and-bank

SAS to get $350M
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidni.../#7e80bad519b4

Alitalia got €400m in February

TAP
The Portuguese Prime Minister, Antonio Costa, said today that TAP Air Portugal could be nationalized in the coming days.

I doubt Team Boris have the balls to let Virgin Atlantic collapse, they just want to see a decent chunk being put on the table by the shareholders.
Delta have said they're not in a position to do so, it therefore falls to Virgin Holdings to put cash on the table and chase Delta for their tab, maybe through a shareholding transfer.

VA will get through this, very best to all.
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Old 24th Apr 2020, 23:29
  #313 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Timba Hold
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Originally Posted by Maxfli View Post
As I understand it so far in terms of Government Financial Support...............

Lufthansa negotiating to get 10B (includes aid for Swiss & Brussels Airlines)
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKCN2252Y6

AF/KLM to get 7B
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/air-f...182631506.html

easyJet to get 500M
https://www.theguardian.com/business...asury-and-bank

SAS to get $350M
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidni.../#7e80bad519b4

Alitalia got 400m in February

TAP
The Portuguese Prime Minister, Antonio Costa, said today that TAP Air Portugal could be nationalized in the coming days.

I doubt Team Boris have the balls to let Virgin Atlantic collapse, they just want to see a decent chunk being put on the table by the shareholders.
Delta have said they're not in a position to do so, it therefore falls to Virgin Holdings to put cash on the table and chase Delta for their tab, maybe through a shareholding transfer.

VA will get through this, very best to all.
All of these (bar easyjet) are flag carriers... BA (though totally privatised) would be our closest equivalent. EJ raised significant funds elsewhere, had a strong balance sheet before this and crucially their capacity couldn't feasibly be replaced anywhere near as quickly as VS, I appreciate a lot of this capacity won't be required for several months- if not years. Compare 40ish airframes to 330ish (a good percentage which are owned - mentioned above) I totally understand the need for competition and whilst a BA monopoly would benefit many of us on this forum I don't think anyone wants to see our friends/family/pilots+crew e.t.c. out of jobs.

Would you invest your own money into virgin right now? Whilst the whole aim of the government is to support/re-start the economy would the loss of a financially depleted company really prevent an overall recovery? In a time where several uk airlines are making record profits what does it say that the company has been making losses since 2016 and not looking to return to profit until 2021? Would the 500m actually save them? What collateral is there to the tax payers 500m?I have no answers to any of these questions and I sincerely hope the guys/girls at VS make it through- in whatever shape. It doesn't seem like a sound bail-out to the average person and RBs previous publicity is not helping. With any luck the group goes to creditors (like many other large companies mentioned above) and generates the cash required to keep them going. Unfortunately there will be several casualties in the aftermath of COVID and it really has become survival of the fittest in many senses.

Good luck to all involved and hopefully we'll all be off this forum and flying again soon!
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Old 24th Apr 2020, 23:37
  #314 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Timba Hold
Posts: 68
Trading Update for Six Months ending 31 March 2020


Link from another forum, ezy currently sitting on circa 3bn in cash to see them through.
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Old 24th Apr 2020, 23:46
  #315 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Somewhere
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National flag carriers get bailed out, generally, private companies don’t.

That may not be perceived as being very fair but that’s the way it is.

One of the best flights I ever had was with Virgin, but also so was the worst.

I don’t understand all the bashing of Virgin that goes on here from some members, but conversely I also don’t understand why Virgin feel they are a special case that are deserving of a taxpayer bailout? Just like the many UK airlines that have come and gone before them, no one is immune or special enough to warrant exclusion from going into administration if the business case isn’t there. Even more so in Virgins case where they’re profit relative to turnover is horrendously poor.

Great advertising and a Hollywood Playboy style image isn’t enough not to be expendable. It’s just business, it’s not personal. Thats probably hard to imagine when you’re sat at 30W and the realisation sets in that soon it could all be over, but it’s not the first time many a career pilot has been in that exact same situation pondering the exact same reality. The waste of it is tragic but it’s a very real possibility now.

Delta might only own 49% of Virgin but they’ve been calling the shots and essentially steering the ship to a great extent over the last few years. Until now they’ve had a bottomless pit of money which has proved very lucrative and successful for Virgin Atlantic, but now the party is over.

Richard Bransons handling of the plight of Virgin under the current circumstances couldn’t of been handled any worse it would seem, if anything he’s just whipping up a sentiment of hostility in the tax payers mind towards his cause. I personally don’t think he will stomp up the cash himself? Who would? Running an airline and making money out of it successfully is very difficult to achieve and the Virgin model isn't the best In the business by far. Although the company is the flagship of his brand, this is going to really test his metal. It has survived this long only through clever marketing, smoke and mirrors and a succession of differing shareholder stakes over the years who have had money to burn.

I sincerely hope for all who work there that something gets pulled out the bag and a rescue package or business deal of some kind can be hammered out, but one thing is for dead certain, Virgin at the very best, will be a shadow of its former self once this current crisis passes, if it survives at all.

Last edited by Go4PoweredDecent; 25th Apr 2020 at 01:34.
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Old 24th Apr 2020, 23:47
  #316 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: A Gaelic Country
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Any airline getting a State handout should at the very least have the basic decency to refund customers. Properly. Legally. Cash. 14 days.
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Old 25th Apr 2020, 00:31
  #317 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: New York
Posts: 28
Originally Posted by Maxfli View Post
As I understand it so far in terms of Government Financial Support...............

Lufthansa negotiating to get 10B (includes aid for Swiss & Brussels Airlines)
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKCN2252Y6

AF/KLM to get 7B
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/air-f...182631506.html

easyJet to get 500M
https://www.theguardian.com/business...asury-and-bank

SAS to get $350M
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidni.../#7e80bad519b4

Alitalia got 400m in February

TAP
The Portuguese Prime Minister, Antonio Costa, said today that TAP Air Portugal could be nationalized in the coming days.

I doubt Team Boris have the balls to let Virgin Atlantic collapse, they just want to see a decent chunk being put on the table by the shareholders.
Delta have said they're not in a position to do so, it therefore falls to Virgin Holdings to put cash on the table and chase Delta for their tab, maybe through a shareholding transfer.

VA will get through this, very best to all.
AF-KL Group got a total of nearly 9-11 Billion euros. 2-4 from the Netherlands Govt. and 7 Billion Euros from France total.
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Old 25th Apr 2020, 00:54
  #318 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
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Originally Posted by covec View Post
Any airline getting a State handout should at the very least have the basic decency to refund customers. Properly. Legally. Cash. 14 days.
It's not a state handout as such, but a credit line. They don't need to actually spend the money. I imagine Virgin and most others will, but it's not a handout.
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Old 25th Apr 2020, 07:22
  #319 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Lost in Space
Posts: 325
Seems that you need to be viable or have a good credit rating to get government loans which you could argue is right to protect tax payers money.

This is from todays Telegraph:-

Mike Ashley's Frasers Group has been refused an emergency Bank of England loan after being forced to shut its stores, as the chain settled a controversial 674m (590m) tax bill in Belgium.

The owner of Sports Direct and House of Fraser cannot use the loan scheme because it does not have the required credit rating.

Frasers said that it had not been accepted as eligible for the programme to help Britain's biggest firms using public mnoey during the coronavirus pandemic. The likes of Primark and Greggs have been able to tap it up for extra cash.

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Old 25th Apr 2020, 07:59
  #320 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: uk
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[QUOTE=giggitygiggity;10762259]It's not a state handout as such, but a credit line. They don't need to actually spend the money. I imagine Virgin and most others will, but it's not a handout.[/QUOTE

VS need to repay $200 Million to Delta,wheres the money?
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