Rumours & News Reporting Points that may affect our jobs or lives as professional pilots. Also, items that may be of interest to professional pilots.

Virgin Atlantic

Old 23rd Apr 2020, 16:42
  #301 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1998
Location: south coast
Posts: 406
Well said HFP - nail on head
Barcli is offline  
Old 23rd Apr 2020, 16:46
  #302 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Bed
Posts: 195
Eloquent words indeed
sangiovese. is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2020, 09:46
  #303 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: EC
Posts: 61
Can’t quite see how the UK Government would be able to justify to the UK taxpayer “saving” Virgin Atlantic when it chose not to do so with Flybe, or for that matter Monarch or Thomas Cook? Appreciate the difference is Coronavirus lockdown, and that is arguably a significant, arguably justifiable, difference, but many UK taxpayers may well question why a significant UK transport provider such as Flybe would be considered less worthy of “saving” than a longhaul carrier that is not a sole provider on most routes it operates (sad as it would be to see the loss of it’s type of competition), and that’s before you get into the political hot potato of the wealth of its owner(s).
babybaby is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2020, 12:29
  #304 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Uk
Posts: 27
Just for any Virgin guys/girls reading all this negativity and speculation..

I'm a glass half full kind of person..

I think RB will pull his finger out..

All the best.
Bravo Zulu is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2020, 13:40
  #305 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Surrey
Posts: 434
Does anyone actually have any facts about the c.£500m paid out in "Marketing costs" each year, other than speculation that its a way to siphon profits off to the BVIs?
Busdriver01 is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2020, 13:44
  #306 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: London
Posts: 1
Originally Posted by Busdriver01 View Post
Does anyone actually have any facts about the c.£500m paid out in "Marketing costs" each year, other than speculation that its a way to siphon profits off to the BVIs?
Why wouldnt it just be marketing? - after all I would have thought that most airlines have massive advertising budgets. Emirates seems to spend more on marketing around the globe than on actual aircraft.
cashash is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2020, 14:03
  #307 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Surrey
Posts: 434
Sorry, I should clarify: I have heard that its really for the licence to use the Virgin brand. My point being, that would be sent to Virgin Group, which in turn would pay Virgin Group Holdings Ltd, which is based in the tax free BVIs. I cannot see it being only for marketing as it's higher than the entire employee remuneration bill, and almost as much as they spent on fuel, which just seems too much. All this to say, if it's truly just a way of getting money to the BVIs tax free, then I can see why the government would be digging in. But if it's not, surely thats a bill that can easily be reduced (surley the Virgin brand is strong enough not to need to spend that amount?) and makes their finances look a lot more healthy, increasing their chances of getting a loan?
Busdriver01 is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2020, 14:22
  #308 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Freedom Sound
Posts: 244
SRB was quite happy to say that BA ought to be allowed to go bust back in 2009 when BA were having a bad time. Example of "things you wish you never said"?
esscee is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2020, 15:09
  #309 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Northern Territory Australia
Posts: 104
Originally Posted by esscee View Post
SRB was quite happy to say that BA ought to be allowed to go bust back in 2009 when BA were having a bad time. Example of "things you wish you never said"?
After the way under the Marshall/King leadership BA acted by instituting the dirty tricks campaign against VS are you surprised that there is little love lost.
For that disreputable action BA fined a paltry £610k with £4.5m costs.
that £610k went straight back to the airline but In reality the losses and disruption was much more.
Gove N.T. is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2020, 16:33
  #310 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: UK
Posts: 42
Just remember that when Branson was a young kid on the block he took huge risks in setting up a number of companies. Some failed, some, such as Virgin Atlantic succeeded.

Since 1984 he has given good employment to many thousands of individuals and provided a product on his aircraft that exceeds that of many other airlines, including BA.

Virgin Atlantic survived the BA led dirty tricks in the early 90s when they and other national carriers tried to force them out of business.

Virgin Atlantic does not have the not so subtle backing of the Government, who in the early to mid-80s wrote off BA's massive debt so that the airline could effectively start again under Lord King.

If you think BA's service is bad just watch it deteriorate if there is no competition. The US airlines are even worse than BA and do not provide effective competition.
101917 is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2020, 17:04
  #311 (permalink)  
MDS
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Spain
Posts: 64
It's all well and good being sentimental about VA, but if the airline isn't profitable then why would the taxpayer (or commercial entity) give them a loan?

If they were losing money hand over fist without the pandemic, a loan certainly won't change a thing.

PS. I believe competition is a great thing, but as with all business, viability = profitability.
MDS is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2020, 17:18
  #312 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Leeds
Posts: 215
Can I ask why?
I did explain my reasons but it appears an excitable mod removed it...?

Nothing to do with job losses, I just prefer Virgin to BA all over, Better prices better service offered and generally having flown with both airlines regularly, I personally prefer the Virgin option as I feel its a nicer experience

Re am I happy to pay more tax to bail out virgin, that's a ridiculous remark did you vote on the easy jet bailout? or the Banks bailout ?? no didn't think so, did you pay more tax because of it? no
Livesinafield is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2020, 17:52
  #313 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 561
Originally Posted by MDS View Post
It's all well and good being sentimental about VA, but if the airline isn't profitable then why would the taxpayer (or commercial entity) give them a loan?

If they were losing money hand over fist without the pandemic, a loan certainly won't change a thing.

PS. I believe competition is a great thing, but as with all business, viability = profitability.
I know itís a small detail but Virgin Atlantic is VS not VA. The rest makes sense.
qwertyuiop is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2020, 18:19
  #314 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: jersey
Age: 70
Posts: 1,238
Originally Posted by Livesinafield View Post
I did explain my reasons but it appears an excitable mod removed it...?

Nothing to do with job losses, I just prefer Virgin to BA all over, Better prices better service offered and generally having flown with both airlines regularly, I personally prefer the Virgin option as I feel its a nicer experience

Re am I happy to pay more tax to bail out virgin, that's a ridiculous remark did you vote on the easy jet bailout? or the Banks bailout ?? no didn't think so, did you pay more tax because of it? no
Not yet you didn't. There will be plenty of extra tax to pay when we have got over this !
kcockayne is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2020, 18:57
  #315 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: in my own world
Posts: 133
MDS has posted more poorly researched bollox

If they were losing money hand over fist without the pandemic, a loan certainly won't change a thing.
The last financial report gave a loss of £26 Million on a £2.8 Billion turnover, hardly 'losing money hand over fist'. One of the main reasons for this was the ongoing problem with the RR engine on the 789. At times we would be down to 4 grounded out of a fleet of 17. This was a problem not of Virgin's making. We needed to retain fuel thirsty A346s and buy 4 A332s to make up the shortfall.

'lies, damn lies and statistics'



xray one is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2020, 19:18
  #316 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 279
Itís all relative of course. In that year what profit did BA, EasyJet and Ryanair make?
fruitbat is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2020, 19:25
  #317 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 2
Originally Posted by fruitbat View Post
Itís all relative of course. In that year what profit did BA, EasyJet and Ryanair make?
At the end of the day the airline was on the road to recovery! Weíve had to deal with a lot of issues the past few years regarding the engine issue on the 787. Also the other airlines you mentioned are about 5 times the size of Virgin!

I really donít understand the constant Virgin bashing on this site! We pilots are supposed to stick together especially in times of crisis! All I see is glee at the fact Virgin are struggling!

Poor form.

Last edited by A320baby; 24th Apr 2020 at 19:57.
A320baby is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2020, 20:43
  #318 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: UK
Posts: 25
Originally Posted by cashash View Post
Why wouldnt it just be marketing? - after all I would have thought that most airlines have massive advertising budgets. Emirates seems to spend more on marketing around the globe than on actual aircraft.
EasyJet spent £157m in 2019 on a turnover of £6bn, and in 2018 BA spent £509m in 2018 on £13bn turnover.

So Virgin's £500m against a £2bn (ish) turnover looks high in comparison



Andy D is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2020, 22:58
  #319 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Europe
Posts: 144
As I understand it so far in terms of Government Financial Support...............

Lufthansa negotiating to get €10B (includes aid for Swiss & Brussels Airlines)
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKCN2252Y6

AF/KLM to get €7B
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/air-f...182631506.html

easyJet to get €500M
https://www.theguardian.com/business...asury-and-bank

SAS to get $350M
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidni.../#7e80bad519b4

Alitalia got €400m in February

TAP
The Portuguese Prime Minister, Antonio Costa, said today that TAP Air Portugal could be nationalized in the coming days.

I doubt Team Boris have the balls to let Virgin Atlantic collapse, they just want to see a decent chunk being put on the table by the shareholders.
Delta have said they're not in a position to do so, it therefore falls to Virgin Holdings to put cash on the table and chase Delta for their tab, maybe through a shareholding transfer.

VA will get through this, very best to all.
Maxfli is offline  
Old 24th Apr 2020, 23:29
  #320 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Timba Hold
Posts: 67
Originally Posted by Maxfli View Post
As I understand it so far in terms of Government Financial Support...............

Lufthansa negotiating to get Ä10B (includes aid for Swiss & Brussels Airlines)
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-h...-idUSKCN2252Y6

AF/KLM to get Ä7B
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/air-f...182631506.html

easyJet to get Ä500M
https://www.theguardian.com/business...asury-and-bank

SAS to get $350M
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidni.../#7e80bad519b4

Alitalia got Ä400m in February

TAP
The Portuguese Prime Minister, Antonio Costa, said today that TAP Air Portugal could be nationalized in the coming days.

I doubt Team Boris have the balls to let Virgin Atlantic collapse, they just want to see a decent chunk being put on the table by the shareholders.
Delta have said they're not in a position to do so, it therefore falls to Virgin Holdings to put cash on the table and chase Delta for their tab, maybe through a shareholding transfer.

VA will get through this, very best to all.
All of these (bar easyjet) are flag carriers... BA (though totally privatised) would be our closest equivalent. EJ raised significant funds elsewhere, had a strong balance sheet before this and crucially their capacity couldn't feasibly be replaced anywhere near as quickly as VS, I appreciate a lot of this capacity won't be required for several months- if not years. Compare 40ish airframes to 330ish (a good percentage which are owned - mentioned above) I totally understand the need for competition and whilst a BA monopoly would benefit many of us on this forum I don't think anyone wants to see our friends/family/pilots+crew e.t.c. out of jobs.

Would you invest your own money into virgin right now? Whilst the whole aim of the government is to support/re-start the economy would the loss of a financially depleted company really prevent an overall recovery? In a time where several uk airlines are making record profits what does it say that the company has been making losses since 2016 and not looking to return to profit until 2021? Would the £500m actually save them? What collateral is there to the tax payers 500m?I have no answers to any of these questions and I sincerely hope the guys/girls at VS make it through- in whatever shape. It doesn't seem like a sound bail-out to the average person and RBs previous publicity is not helping. With any luck the group goes to creditors (like many other large companies mentioned above) and generates the cash required to keep them going. Unfortunately there will be several casualties in the aftermath of COVID and it really has become survival of the fittest in many senses.

Good luck to all involved and hopefully we'll all be off this forum and flying again soon!
MikeAlpha320 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.