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Virgin Atlantic

Old 21st Apr 2020, 14:59
  #221 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Originally Posted by Zeus View Post
Hate to drag facts in to this discussion...
"Offshore"? Have a look at:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...--uk-taxation/
Bear in mind that the tax Virgin Atlantic paid in the UK is quoted in thousands of pounds.
Can't see the chart without paying for it but looks like it covers 2007-2014 so it misses some years of profitability and some years of losses
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 16:33
  #222 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by cashash View Post
I think the problem with nationalisation is that it could then be seen as unfair competition to BA given that once nationalised its access to funding would be much easier and cheaper through the government than the commercial markets that BA would have to rely on.
If nationalization of VIR happens, it will more than likely also involve the nationalization of BAW, too. Possibly in the same company. This situation is of such monumental proportions that it will involve unimaginable solutions, if there is no respite soon. Questions as to what tax Branson & VIR pay will be of absolutely NO significance. We are talking about nothing less than the possible complete annihilation of the British airline sector - NOT TO MENTION the rest of the British economy. Concentrate on that, rather than running anyone down ( I don’t refer to you in that, cashash).
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 18:15
  #223 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
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Originally Posted by dead_pan View Post
Well, if it all goes south we'll all get a timeshare in a lovely Caribbean island. That'll be our holidays sorted forever.

Unfortunately not..he is not proposing to use the Island as collateral against a loan from the Government, only against loans from the private sector banks.



The billionaire later confirmed that he is not offering Necker Island as collateral on loans from the UK taxpayer, but only as security against commercial loans.

“He and the team at Virgin Group will use the resources available to them which could even include raising money against Necker,” his spokesperson said. “He does not state that Necker Island would be used as collateral against any potential government support Virgin Atlantic may receive.”



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Old 21st Apr 2020, 18:46
  #224 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by rotorwills View Post
Let's face it, VS are pretty much a cooked goose. No pun intended with the spruce. Well now we have Virgin Australian outfit in admin, it cant be long before Atlantic will follow them. Nothing from the UK government unless RB forgoes his share and Delta follow. I suppose Delta could move for the 51% shares, using Trump money, very unlikely as VS isn't exactly looking like it could break even in the medium term never mind turn a profit. Businesses will fail and that's the way of the world. Don't get too attached and on these forums we have a vast number of very well rewarded people crying about how bad things are of going to be. Well my comrades things are lot worse for so so many others.

Life is full of ups and downs, okay we have a lot of downs at the moment but some ups will appear.

Just gotta to get on and live and be happy with what you have, stop the crying and get on.
This girlie is a windup,probably the daughter of lord king, with psychiatric issues,
ignore the git
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 19:16
  #225 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
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I really hope Branson saves his baby, I can’t see him and the UK tax payers coming to any agreement though.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 19:34
  #226 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Busbert View Post
It’s probably worth pointing out that ‘British’ Airways is a brand of a Madrid registered company which is 25% owned by the Qatari government. Qatar is a place where homosexuality is a capital crime, and they are on Iran’s side in a proxy war against Saudi Arabia. So when you fly ‘British’ Airways you are putting bullets in guns in Syria and Yemen.
It’s probably not. Unless you’re a wind up merchant or troll. In which case fill your boots, helpfully there’s an ignore button for the rest of us.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 20:31
  #227 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
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Rip to VS. I’ll never forget you.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 22:16
  #228 (permalink)  
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 22:25
  #229 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Originally Posted by BBK View Post
Rex B

Welcome to troll world. Hardly a professional pilot in sight. Thank you for your kind words earlier in this thread.

What the hard of thinking trolls are missing is that if Virgin doesn’t survive then HMRC will have a big hole in their budget to the tune of about 10,000 direct employees’ tax and NI. Not to mention the knock on effect of all the associated companies.

The other thing that’s intensely annoying is the idea that the company was struggling before. Challenges existed certainly but the Joint Venture with Delta was going well and the leisure flights were busy. Virgin Holidays were doing well. Anyway, sorry to inject some facts into this thread.
The 'hard of thinking' can see how such a 'big hole' you mention will be nothing compared to a total wipeout loan or other financial assistance offered by the Treasury/Taxpayers never being repaid when VA goes down at a later point. Not all businesses can and will be saved, Rishi has said it many times and unfortunately VA does not cut the mustard given its most recent financial performance. Good money after bad. Nothing to do with wishing ill of the airline or its staff, corporate greed and mismanagement have lead here, with Covid the catalyst.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 23:56
  #230 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
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Originally Posted by A320baby View Post
Most of the media coverage I've seen looks to be about Richard Branson, but it feels like lazy journalism. Surely it's not about him, it's about saving 8,571 jobs which contribute £407m directly into the UK economy and a further £867.6m in tax to HMRC.
Australia is going through this exact same thing with virgin australia going going into voluntary admin, they are 20% etihad, 20% SAL, 20% Nashan 20% another chinese group, 10% branson. Haven't made a profit in 8 years. Requested a 1,4 billion loan from australian govt. We have the same decision to make prop up foreign owned airline that has makes no money but employees 10K australians or let it die and see what takes over
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Old 22nd Apr 2020, 06:08
  #231 (permalink)  
 
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The 'hard of thinking' can see how such a 'big hole' you mention will be nothing compared to a total wipeout loan or other financial assistance offered by the Treasury/Taxpayers never being repaid when VA goes down at a later point
Since you have such clarity of thinking yourself can we have the actual numbers you base that statement on. I presume that your "thinking" is based on actual calculations including the size of the loan, interest, tax revenues, etc
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Old 22nd Apr 2020, 06:59
  #232 (permalink)  
 
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Credit to this mornings UK Times for the majority of below.



Whatever way you look at it, Sir Richard is still a fabulously wealthy chap. Yes, as the owner of airlines, hotels, cruise ships, holiday companies and gyms, he’s in the eye of the Covid-19 storm. But he’s hardly skint. His latest stock market venture, the space travel group Virgin Galactic, is valued at $3.33 billion and he owns 51 per cent of it. His brand licensing business, Virgin Enterprises Ltd, pays him an annuity of around £90 million a year. His 13 per cent holding in Virgin Money is worth about £130 million. And he took more than $1 billion out of the Virgin America airline. Then there are his interests in private Virgin businesses, plus a property portfolio. He values Necker at $100 million-plus.

There’s money to be found, even if Virgin Australia collapsed yesterday, wiping out his 10 per cent equity stake. But there’s also another issue: is bailing out Virgin Atlantic a good use of taxpayers’ money? Sir Richard says he only wants a “commercial loan” and that he’s willing to invest $250 million across the Virgin Group, including a chunky sum in the airline. Yet look at its figures and it’s not the most inviting case for a mooted £500 million taxpayer loan.



The latest are for 2018, where the carrier had a pre-tax loss of £60 million on top of 2017’s near-£80 million losses. And the balance sheet hardly reassured: £1.55 billion of debt, gearing of 5.1 times and negative net assets of £20.1 million.





Yes, Virgin says the airline was heading for a return to profit this year. But it hasn’t made a profit since 2016. What hope post-virus? Will it be in any state to fulfil his promise that it would “pay back” a government loan? And why should the taxpayer step in for Delta, valued at $15 billion but finding it tricky to chip in because it’s taken US state support? The government is right to insist on a post-virus business plan and cash from the owners before entertaining any readies for Virgin Atlantic. And it doesn’t help that Sir Richard’s been here so recently with his shameless Flybe begging bowl act.

Another thing rankles, too: that despite his pledge to present “the actual facts”, there is arguably zero transparency over the Branson money trail that ends up in the parent company: Virgin Group Holdings, controlled by his family trusts in the tax-free British Virgin Islands. If he wants a bailout, he can lift the lid on that.



Anyone who wishes to avail themselves of information on RB and his virgin group should take time out to read Tom Bowers book. Branson. Behind the mask. Rather apt title now with this dreaded virus.

There are quite a few well researched articles appearing regarding SRB begging bowl, none, that I have found to be in support, with most condemning him personally. Many quoting, live by the sword die by the sword​​​​​.
One cannot really look to support with tax payers money a secreted set of corporations sheltered in Tax havens without clear transparency. Many cite what about the employees, well isn't that the case for the millions being put out of work. The UK government should try and assist essential workers along with companies that are profitable but VA aren't essential and certainly not profitable.


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Old 22nd Apr 2020, 07:15
  #233 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
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Having suffered Virgin West Coast on a regular basis over the last 20 years, watching the cost of my First Class Season Ticket climb faster than the Bell X1 every time I have to renew, forgive me if I don't have too much sympathy for the Bearded One.
That said, huge rail subsidy aside, Virgin Group was only paid £300 million on dividends from the rail franchise, only pocket change.

I have no desire to see people lose their jobs, I have suffered this myself several times over the years, but Virgin Atlantic is no different than any other airline, they don't deserve better treatment, despite the fact they are my first choice when I travel to the US on business.

Rotorwills, speaks the truth, but thanks to many years of spin Sir Richard comes across as a everyman most of us won't accept it.
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Old 22nd Apr 2020, 08:48
  #234 (permalink)  
 
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Branson ripping up a cheque for AUD$240 million from SIA to buy VB in 2001.
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Old 22nd Apr 2020, 09:13
  #235 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
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Sadly the crux of the issue is Virgin is a strong brand, but a poor business. When you want people to loan you money , even the government, you need to be viable. The figures tell a grim story.

If Virgin do come through this there will need to be significant changes, smaller fleet, less flying from the regions and big changes in manpower. None of the employees are to blame but present and past management have not served them well, failing to make the changes required to make it a competitive operation.

As for the argument about competition, there will always be someone to fill the gap should they fold, but let's try to keep another British Airline from becoming history.

Hope there second attempt at convincing the government has some serious business plan behind it to convince those involved...I am guessing the first didn't.

Branson's letter was poor, as has been his response to date. Not a great role model.

Last edited by 8029848s; 22nd Apr 2020 at 09:28.
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Old 22nd Apr 2020, 09:15
  #236 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
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https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ranson-bailout

Worth a read. So many businesses need saving. It is hard to see why this should be one of them as there will be excess airline capacity for a long time to come.
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Old 22nd Apr 2020, 10:02
  #237 (permalink)  
 
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In economics you will read of the multiplier effect.
If I earn £10 I will probably save 10% i.e. £1 and spend the remaining £9.
The people I spend the £9 will probably save 10% =90p and spend the remaining £8.90
The people they spend their £8.90 with will save 10% i.e 89p and spend the remaining £8.01
etc etc etc the amount earned multiplies.

The same applies in reverse.

If the Treasury allow companies to go bust due to short term shortfalls the effect will be much more than the amount saved by not loaning companies the necessary funds.
In the long term the whole economy goes down the drain.
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Old 22nd Apr 2020, 10:18
  #238 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Originally Posted by A320baby View Post
stole this from someone

Just running the numbers on Virgin Atlantic, based on Dec 2018 figures:
- £2.7b turnover = £0 VAT (zero-rated)
- Operating profit of -£45m = £0 corporation tax (because they were loss making, presumably they paid 20% tax on past profits of £150-200m and aim to get back to this)

However...
- Salaries of £407m = £81m PAYE (20% base rate, some will be higher rate of course so this is low estimate) + £8.1m (2% national insurance)
- Air passenger duty (£150 per UK outbound long-haul flight) x 5.19m passengers (2018, Statistica) = £778.5m

Total: £867.6m tax contributions per year

Most of the media coverage I've seen looks to be about Richard Branson, but it feels like lazy journalism. Surely it's not about him, it's about saving 8,571 jobs which contribute £407m directly into the UK economy and a further £867.6m in tax to HMRC.

Let me know if I'm missing anything?
Not sure it's as straightforward as that…

Given the timescales being suggested for air travel to recover it seems a proportion of that PAYE / NI (less staff needed), and APD (less passengers flying) is already lost, and that's going to be the case for all airlines

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Old 22nd Apr 2020, 11:22
  #239 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
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Originally Posted by Zeus View Post
In economics you will read of the multiplier effect.
If I earn £10 I will probably save 10% i.e. £1 and spend the remaining £9.
The people I spend the £9 will probably save 10% =90p and spend the remaining £8.90
The people they spend their £8.90 with will save 10% i.e 89p and spend the remaining £8.01
etc etc etc the amount earned multiplies.

The same applies in reverse.

If the Treasury allow companies to go bust due to short term shortfalls the effect will be much more than the amount saved by not loaning companies the necessary funds.
In the long term the whole economy goes down the drain.
Ah, the 'trickle down effect' beloved darling of Thatcher and Reagan. It never really worked as intended. Large amounts of money were not spent and the wealth gap widened.
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Old 22nd Apr 2020, 11:45
  #240 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
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Originally Posted by dead_pan View Post
Well, if it all goes south we'll all get a timeshare in a lovely Caribbean island. That'll be our holidays sorted forever.
Although, of course, if there are no airlines when all goes south, you may have to row there.
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