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Virgin Atlantic

Old 20th Apr 2020, 21:53
  #201 (permalink)  
 
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2018

https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/d...68262d3414f843
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Old 20th Apr 2020, 22:05
  #202 (permalink)  
 
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Hang on, how exactly are they going to repay this loan if/when there's no business to make money? In fact, they'll probably be pissing money away for years. How do they repay the lender?
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Old 20th Apr 2020, 22:18
  #203 (permalink)  
 
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Best of luck to the guys and girls at Virgin, some of my earliest childhood aviation memories are of visiting the flightdeck on the old classic 747s on our way to the USA in the 80s and early 90s. I only have to hear Donald Fagen’s What a Beautiful World and I’m taken back to those times. Some of my ex colleagues and friends are there and deserve all the fortune that Lady Luck can smile on them. Despite what WW may think we at BA need Virgin to keep us honest. Hopefully there is a way, any way to keep what is a great British Airline afloat, God knows we’ve seen too many failures recently. Chin up chaps from one BA employee on the other side of the fence but very much in solidarity at this difficult time (we’re not immune from this either, despite what ideas people may have).
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Old 20th Apr 2020, 22:53
  #204 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
Despite what WW may think we at BA need Virgin to keep us honest.
That didn't work too well in the past.
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Old 20th Apr 2020, 22:53
  #205 (permalink)  
 
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Radiosuctch

I seriously doubt the Virgin UK domiciled companies have paid 'Billions' in tax over the years. Do you have any evidence of this?
Read the whole piece - Virgin Atlantic and their employees. In my time at VA I have paid £700,000 in tax. We have over 1,000 pilots. Add to that another 9,000 Cabin Crew and ground staff. Stop asking stupid and ill informed questions you pathetic troll.
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Old 20th Apr 2020, 22:55
  #206 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK View Post
That didn't work too well in the past.
Set that one up perfectly
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 00:37
  #207 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
Best of luck to the guys and girls at Virgin, some of my earliest childhood aviation memories are of visiting the flightdeck on the old classic 747s on our way to the USA in the 80s and early 90s. I only have to hear Donald Fagen’s What a Beautiful World and I’m taken back to those times. Some of my ex colleagues and friends are there and deserve all the fortune that Lady Luck can smile on them. Despite what WW may think we at BA need Virgin to keep us honest. Hopefully there is a way, any way to keep what is a great British Airline afloat, God knows we’ve seen too many failures recently. Chin up chaps from one BA employee on the other side of the fence but very much in solidarity at this difficult time (we’re not immune from this either, despite what ideas people may have).
Rex- What a nice post-great to see such solidarity after what has not been a great day for the Virgin family.

If SRB/VAA management & Delta can negotiate a deal through the banks then there is hope that the airline will survive. But not in the format we see today! The airline has to become leaner and management will have to prove that they will take what ever action is necessary to get them on side. A few weeks ago the company retired the last of the A340-600's and have dropped operations at LGW and MAN, leaving LHR as the main base. So what else can they do to reduce costs! the obvious one is to retire the 744's & here lies a dilemma! make all the 400 pilots redundant or comply with the seniority list ? Further reductions in fleet size might also be needed so the A330-200 (4) is looking venerable. The plus side is Virgin operates a very modern fleet of 17 B787-9 and at present 4 A350-1000'S with 7 more expected in 2021 as well as up to 11 A330-Neo's on order (although these may well be in the balance). Will this swing things to preserve UK jobs at airbus is anyones guess.

These are unprecedented times, it is my hope that UK will see through all the bad press that "Richard" has received and recognise that the bloke is an innovator, fighter and most importantly a motivator. With out his vision 1000's of people around the globe would not have been able to provide for their families.

Stay safe.


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Old 21st Apr 2020, 07:04
  #208 (permalink)  
 
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Branson was widely quoted in the press back in 2009 arguing against the UK government bailing out BA after the financial crisis.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 08:00
  #209 (permalink)  
 
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The problem is how Branson has constructed the company that has resulted in little cash and no assets for a rainy day, the article in today’s Telegraph gave some insight to this, the company has no assets, rented offices, rented aircraft and it also rents its name it also stated the landing slots are also borrowed against so can’t be used as an asset, the problem for the government is they also need to protect tax payers and in the event of a liquidation what money can be raised to repay the loan, total mess, easyJet raised 600 million but own a lot of aircraft so the loan was a easy transaction, BA own aircraft so can also raise money, seems virgin has maxed out the credit card before this crisis so no room for manoeuvre.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 08:14
  #210 (permalink)  
 
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I sincerely hope that Virgin Atlantic survive and go on to thrive. I know many of you and have witnessed other companies collapse and would not wish that on anybody.

Perhaps the time has come for the British Government to buy (nationalise) Sir Richard Brandon's interest in the company thus fulfilling his sincere desire to see the company survive. If he wished to continue to participate he could, of course, be taken on as an employee.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 09:34
  #211 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by xray one View Post
Radiosuctch



Read the whole piece - Virgin Atlantic and their employees. In my time at VA I have paid £700,000 in tax. We have over 1,000 pilots. Add to that another 9,000 Cabin Crew and ground staff. Stop asking stupid and ill informed questions you pathetic troll.
Well, I'm talking about the companies. Generally the staff are not in a position to shift salaries around the world to avoid taxes. The little person generally gets clobbered for tax. Not so big corporates that employ dozens of tax lawyers to exploit every loophole.
Anyway, both you and I are entitled to our opinions and I don't intend changing mine about how these big corporates avoid taxes. But thanks for engaging.

PS - why do you have to be so nasty? You don't know me, you don't know I am stupid or ill informed. And as to being a troll, then please reread what I said above.
Have a nice day.

Out


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Old 21st Apr 2020, 09:39
  #212 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by touch&go View Post
The problem is how Branson has constructed the company that has resulted in little cash and no assets for a rainy day, the article in today’s Telegraph gave some insight to this, the company has no assets, rented offices, rented aircraft and it also rents its name it also stated the landing slots are also borrowed against so can’t be used as an asset, the problem for the government is they also need to protect tax payers and in the event of a liquidation what money can be raised to repay the loan, total mess, easyJet raised 600 million but own a lot of aircraft so the loan was a easy transaction, BA own aircraft so can also raise money, seems virgin has maxed out the credit card before this crisis so no room for manoeuvre.
Well said. It's how many big corporates are organised these days. Lease,rent but never buy and borrow to the limit all in the name of providing shareholders with maximum return. It's a bean counters paradise.

It's all coming home to roost.

Last edited by radiosutch; 21st Apr 2020 at 09:52.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 09:53
  #213 (permalink)  
MDS
 
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Originally Posted by xray one View Post
Read the whole piece - Virgin Atlantic and their employees. In my time at VA I have paid £700,000 in tax. We have over 1,000 pilots. Add to that another 9,000 Cabin Crew and ground staff.
I'd just like to point out that nobody is attacking you nor the other hard working employees personally. Your income tax is paid by your hard work as an individual, the same with the rest of the staff. This is what covers your furlough pay and any other benefits that you as an individual deserve.

However it's not you who is asking for the loan, it's Virgin Atlantic as a company. We're looking at corporation tax that they (as a company) have contributed, which is minimal, as it's offshored as much as possible.

While I definitely don't want to see anybody out of a job, I just don't think the UK taxpayer should be giving Virgin Group and Delta Air Lines a bailout (nor a loan). If the company does go bankrupt down the line, the money is gone. Judging by the fact the airline has lost money consistently without the coronavirus crisis in play shows how likely the loan is to be paid back. If a commercial bank doesn't see this as a worthwhile opportunity, I don't see why the taxpayer should be the one to take the risks. I'm completely against privatizing profits, and socializing losses (or at least the risk aspect). If this was such a winning investment surely SRB would liquidate some of his assets, to invest the money, to recoup the profits from such a wise decision later?

Once again, this isn't an attack on you, nor any of the frontline employees. You do your best day in and day out and can't be held accountable for corporate decisions, and I don't like poor management hiding behind frontline staff as their defense barrier.

I do wish you and the rest of the Virgin Atlantic staff all the best, although this situation is absolutely nothing of your doing.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 11:05
  #214 (permalink)  
 
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Good post MDS .Sums up what I believe the average (Taxpayer) man in the street is thinking .
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 11:46
  #215 (permalink)  
 
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Fully agree with MDS and touch&go post above. They're lacking assets and have been doing badly during the good times throwing money at Virgin Atlantic is a flawed strategy, especially taxpayers money which will likely never be seen again. I feel genuinely sorry for the employees it's bad enough dealing with this virus never mind facing redundancy. Personally I do not want to see any government financial assistance to Virgin Atlantic, it would be the wrong thing to do and is not in the UK taxpayers interest.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 13:26
  #216 (permalink)  
 
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Hate to drag facts in to this discussion...
"Offshore"? Have a look at:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/...--uk-taxation/
Bear in mind that the tax Virgin Atlantic paid in the UK is quoted in thousands of pounds.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 13:30
  #217 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by beardy View Post
Perhaps the time has come for the British Government to buy (nationalise) Sir Richard Brandon's interest in the company thus fulfilling his sincere desire to see the company survive. If he wished to continue to participate he could, of course, be taken on as an employee.
I think the problem with nationalisation is that it could then be seen as unfair competition to BA given that once nationalised its access to funding would be much easier and cheaper through the government than the commercial markets that BA would have to rely on.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 14:01
  #218 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Flying Clog View Post
Hang on, how exactly are they going to repay this loan if/when there's no business to make money? In fact, they'll probably be pissing money away for years. How do they repay the lender?
Well, if it all goes south we'll all get a timeshare in a lovely Caribbean island. That'll be our holidays sorted forever.

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Old 21st Apr 2020, 14:10
  #219 (permalink)  
 
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From Virgin's tax strategy statement:

The Virgin Group always considers its reputation, brand, corporate and social responsibilities when evaluating tax matters and seeks to avoid any tax controversy which may bring the brand into disrepute. Accordingly, the Group does not devise or implement UK tax avoidance schemes.

I'm not a tax lawyer but even I can see that last sentence offers some significant acreage of wriggle room and interpretative flexibility.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 14:18
  #220 (permalink)  
 
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H

Originally Posted by Count von Altibar View Post
Fully agree with MDS and touch&go post above. They're lacking assets and have been doing badly during the good times throwing money at Virgin Atlantic is a flawed strategy, especially taxpayers money which will likely never be seen again. I feel genuinely sorry for the employees it's bad enough dealing with this virus never mind facing redundancy. Personally I do not want to see any government financial assistance to Virgin Atlantic, it would be the wrong thing to do and is not in the UK taxpayers interest.
Several posts offer sympathy for the staff but all those are easy words to write when you're not involved.
When you start an airline from scratch (G-ViRG) with a view to take on goliath or at least tweak his ear,is it surprising that RB has an emotional attachment to it and the staff and will do what he can to ensure it's survival. There's so much horse manure over his wealth. Does anyone really believe he has billions in his current account? Dream on. I suspect many on this site invest their earnings which will have taken real hit in the last few months ĵust like his.
Should VS fold it won't be easy for a new airline to take it's place in the foreseeable future. If one does try it will face a similar Marshall/King type onslaught.. What a gift to Goliath. The little man in charge of IAG will be rubbing his hands with glee.
It's sad to see a competitor in this state for reasons entirely beyond its control.
Perhaps the Treasury has taken the view that regardless of what he comes up with, no airline will make money for many year and any loans with interest will be a pointless exercise
I suspect BA will suffer serious redundancies soon after airlines start to fly again competing with spbsidised US carriers unless of course BA go cap in hand to the Govt.
The 3rd runway is a distant ship smoke on the horizon (Pink Floyd)



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