Emirates 777-31H, (EK521) Accident - Final Report Out
Emirates 777-31H, (EK521) Accident - Final Report Out
Final Report No AIFN/0008/2016, issued on 20 January 2020 published on February 6th 2020
Publication site: https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/Pages/New...spx?NewsID=490
Final report (English): https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/ePublicat...6-Feb-2020.pdf
Publication site: https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/Pages/New...spx?NewsID=490
Final report (English): https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/ePublicat...6-Feb-2020.pdf
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The industry has gone the wrong way with training.
Too much say has been given to automation
Stall recovery, unusual attitudes, go-arounds, etc are such fundamental items to us all, but are not trained (basic principles) anymore as simulator sessions are based on the capabilities/proceedures of the airplane concerned.
Switch off all that stuff and give the crews a basic airframe to play with. No magic button to do what's needed!
Thrust... check it's achieved
Attitude... check your'e pointed up
Flaps... select GA position
Gear, not critical but select up if positive rate.
A bit of fun doing this kind of stuff, instead of the intricate standard lessons designed to cover various regulated required items could be worth it's weight in gold...and even more value if we enjoy it and look forward to the next SIM.
Too much say has been given to automation
Stall recovery, unusual attitudes, go-arounds, etc are such fundamental items to us all, but are not trained (basic principles) anymore as simulator sessions are based on the capabilities/proceedures of the airplane concerned.
Switch off all that stuff and give the crews a basic airframe to play with. No magic button to do what's needed!
Thrust... check it's achieved
Attitude... check your'e pointed up
Flaps... select GA position
Gear, not critical but select up if positive rate.
A bit of fun doing this kind of stuff, instead of the intricate standard lessons designed to cover various regulated required items could be worth it's weight in gold...and even more value if we enjoy it and look forward to the next SIM.
The gulf between my flying as a GA pilot .. wholly manually. And airline flying which seems more and more focussed on "automation must be used at all times" is widening. And it doesn't appear to be helping safety one tiny bit. Would removing the mandate to use auto throttle at all times have avoided this one ?
The gulf between my flying as a GA pilot .. wholly manually. And airline flying which seems more and more focussed on "automation must be used at all times" is widening. And it doesn't appear to be helping safety one tiny bit. Would removing the mandate to use auto throttle at all times have avoided this one ?
Well we can easily fix that problem with a bit of money. Just mandate 2 hours of sim time per month for every airline pilot with no automatics. Job done...what’s that? Nobody wants to pay for it? Ohh, ok.
No doubt about that .. I got the AAIB monthly report today and it contained a cooker fire on a 777 and a child falling off the steps of a 737 fortunately without injury. Absolute leaps and bounds from what it used to be.
The only real flying report was about inputting the wrong taxiway (and getting the wrong runway length) into the electronic flight bag at Lisbon (twice !).
BUT …. my (not a professional pilot) view is that simple flying skills and situational awareness would avoid the automation gotchas as well.
The only real flying report was about inputting the wrong taxiway (and getting the wrong runway length) into the electronic flight bag at Lisbon (twice !).
BUT …. my (not a professional pilot) view is that simple flying skills and situational awareness would avoid the automation gotchas as well.
Last edited by Dave Gittins; 13th Feb 2020 at 14:21.
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Well we can easily fix that problem with a bit of money. Just mandate 2 hours of sim time per month for every airline pilot with no automatics. Job done...what’s that? Nobody wants to pay for it? Ohh, ok.
73qanda, et al,
There is no single method of resolving situations like this. Training is not a solution for every situation, neither automation.
Whatever we might think we have trained pilots to do, not everyone will act in that way, or see situations as trainers or rule-makers expect us to see; training has no guarantee of success.
Automation has a place, but every new automatic feature has ability to introduce its own situation-related hazard.
These safety situations are never ending challenges, often unsuitable for conventional intervention, thus require alternative views, thoughts and action, often all in combination. Without change all that we might do is chase our own tail, reactive safety, continually debate cause and 'solution' for what we might judge as low probability low risk situations, and then without agreement or action. All we do is fix the last accident, but its the next one which will 'get' us.
In this accident training might have helped, so too a better design of automation. Our choice is with hindsight, where the challenge is to foresee such situations and avoid them, require improved technology and the best of human abilities to manage situations which we have difficulty in imagining.
There is no single method of resolving situations like this. Training is not a solution for every situation, neither automation.
Whatever we might think we have trained pilots to do, not everyone will act in that way, or see situations as trainers or rule-makers expect us to see; training has no guarantee of success.
Automation has a place, but every new automatic feature has ability to introduce its own situation-related hazard.
These safety situations are never ending challenges, often unsuitable for conventional intervention, thus require alternative views, thoughts and action, often all in combination. Without change all that we might do is chase our own tail, reactive safety, continually debate cause and 'solution' for what we might judge as low probability low risk situations, and then without agreement or action. All we do is fix the last accident, but its the next one which will 'get' us.
In this accident training might have helped, so too a better design of automation. Our choice is with hindsight, where the challenge is to foresee such situations and avoid them, require improved technology and the best of human abilities to manage situations which we have difficulty in imagining.
Last edited by safetypee; 13th Feb 2020 at 14:11.
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What if anything does 700 liters of water do to the C of G once released from where it's supposed to be? It has to weigh quite a bit.
What happens to the free water in unheated areas at altitude for example freeze thaw cycles and structure?
Regards
Fog
What happens to the free water in unheated areas at altitude for example freeze thaw cycles and structure?
Regards
Fog
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When it thaws it runs out of the drains in the bilges. So no structural damage as such.
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.7 of a ton or roughly 9 passengers.
https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/ePublicat...6-Feb-2020.pdf
Tried to download this report but it was obvious it was going to take a very long time so gave up. Any idea of another way of obtaining a faster result?
Tried to download this report but it was obvious it was going to take a very long time so gave up. Any idea of another way of obtaining a faster result?
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Thats exactly what is needed...most people won’t disconnect the automatics until they get a landing clearance, won’t fly autothrust off, won’t fly manually in IMC etc etc. Obviously if you are getting overloaded AND automation can help you, use it (there are also cases where automation increases the workload, in that case disconnect it or go back to basic modes)...but if pilots feel „overloaded“ due to the simple fact that they are in IMC they are maybe in the wrong business (and the excuse „But a manual flown go around is challenging“ does not cut it - after rotation to initial climb attitude the autopilot can be reengaged on some/most airplanes go around modes will automatically come back on the FMA even if the approach was flown raw data...).
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https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/ePublicat...6-Feb-2020.pdf
Tried to download this report but it was obvious it was going to take a very long time so gave up. Any idea of another way of obtaining a faster result?
Tried to download this report but it was obvious it was going to take a very long time so gave up. Any idea of another way of obtaining a faster result?
de minimus non curat lex
When you teach MCC/JOC/APS/MPL on the Boeing 737, the customer is moving from a light twin 2MT to a training weight of 60+MT. Apart from the first real experience of inertia, full automation is introduced.
It is critical from a very early stage the correct protocols are observed.
The use of A/T is highly addictive especially when linked into the TOGA mode. They must be taught to follow the TLs forward every time the TOGA button is pressed.
When they forgot to follow through, you fail the A/T and let nature take its course......they soon learn. Their brains are hardened & they are unlikely to forget.
“Make as many mistakes as you want, but only make the same mistake once”
My past students may well be having a sense of déjà vu........
It is critical from a very early stage the correct protocols are observed.
The use of A/T is highly addictive especially when linked into the TOGA mode. They must be taught to follow the TLs forward every time the TOGA button is pressed.
When they forgot to follow through, you fail the A/T and let nature take its course......they soon learn. Their brains are hardened & they are unlikely to forget.
“Make as many mistakes as you want, but only make the same mistake once”
My past students may well be having a sense of déjà vu........
The use of A/T is highly addictive especially when linked into the TOGA mode. They must be taught to follow the TLs forward every time the TOGA button is pressed.
When they forgot to follow through, you fail the A/T and let nature take its course......they soon learn. Their brains are hardened & they are unlikely to forget.
When they forgot to follow through, you fail the A/T and let nature take its course......they soon learn. Their brains are hardened & they are unlikely to forget.
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