Delta emergency @ LAX, dumps fuel on school playground.
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Under the radar, over the rainbow
Posts: 788
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And, if this thread is going to be about class, race, political association and and personality, rather than about aviation, maybe it belongs in Jet Blast.
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: ask me tomorrow
Posts: 119
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm finding all of the outrage over the certainty of lawsuits and the mockery of the claimants and their attorneys rather amusing. It's amusing for several reasons:
1. Virtually the entire population of the Western world, with the exception of workers in industries such as aviation, naturally see any exposure to petroleum-based fuels as a health hazard. That should really be obvious to everyone here, at least to everyone who is able to take a moment to view the situation through the eyes of ordinary laypeople.
2. Our legal system (to include essentially all of the English-speaking world) is deliberately designed and organized as an adversarial one. It is a feature of such a system that people who feel they have been harmed or wronged begin their quest for redress with exaggerated claims of suffering and maximum demonization of contemplated defendants. The processes that follow almost always bring the narrative closer to reality and rational analysis. This is just how it works. If you want a system that encourages dispassionate search for truth and fairness, you want a different system than we have.
3. Plaintiff's lawyers are paid to maximize their client's damage awards and the ones who do that best are often masters of melodrama. Again, it's a feature of the system. Milquetoast attorneys don't get big verdicts and aren't likely to be sought by lawyer-shopping clients.
4. Public servants and elected officials must be seen to be championing the causes of their constituents. That's how they keep their jobs, get re-elected, have support to advance their careers, etc. Another feature of the system.
5. The media make money, keep jobs, etc. by luring eyes and ears and attention to their various outlets and publications. And the masses are most attracted to hype. It's a matter of human nature.
None of this should be a surprise to anyone who is reasonably familiar with Western culture. And none of it is going to change, much, as long as our culture is organized as it is and has been for a very long time. Don't hold your breath.
Oh, just by the way, the people some of you are mocking are virtually certain to be significantly compensated for the injuries they believe they have suffered. That's going to happen because the prospective defendants have lawyers and accountants who know perfectly well that there's no way to avoid that. They can look into their crystal calls and visualize a courtroom where plaintiff's experts tell horror stories about the dangers of Jet A and show the impressionable jury images of associated suffering and typical MSDS documents for the fuel:
http://www.cpchem.com/msds/100000014588_SDS_US_EN.PDF
1. Virtually the entire population of the Western world, with the exception of workers in industries such as aviation, naturally see any exposure to petroleum-based fuels as a health hazard. That should really be obvious to everyone here, at least to everyone who is able to take a moment to view the situation through the eyes of ordinary laypeople.
2. Our legal system (to include essentially all of the English-speaking world) is deliberately designed and organized as an adversarial one. It is a feature of such a system that people who feel they have been harmed or wronged begin their quest for redress with exaggerated claims of suffering and maximum demonization of contemplated defendants. The processes that follow almost always bring the narrative closer to reality and rational analysis. This is just how it works. If you want a system that encourages dispassionate search for truth and fairness, you want a different system than we have.
3. Plaintiff's lawyers are paid to maximize their client's damage awards and the ones who do that best are often masters of melodrama. Again, it's a feature of the system. Milquetoast attorneys don't get big verdicts and aren't likely to be sought by lawyer-shopping clients.
4. Public servants and elected officials must be seen to be championing the causes of their constituents. That's how they keep their jobs, get re-elected, have support to advance their careers, etc. Another feature of the system.
5. The media make money, keep jobs, etc. by luring eyes and ears and attention to their various outlets and publications. And the masses are most attracted to hype. It's a matter of human nature.
None of this should be a surprise to anyone who is reasonably familiar with Western culture. And none of it is going to change, much, as long as our culture is organized as it is and has been for a very long time. Don't hold your breath.
Oh, just by the way, the people some of you are mocking are virtually certain to be significantly compensated for the injuries they believe they have suffered. That's going to happen because the prospective defendants have lawyers and accountants who know perfectly well that there's no way to avoid that. They can look into their crystal calls and visualize a courtroom where plaintiff's experts tell horror stories about the dangers of Jet A and show the impressionable jury images of associated suffering and typical MSDS documents for the fuel:
http://www.cpchem.com/msds/100000014588_SDS_US_EN.PDF
If you make a dead stick landing in a field and one poor ba&*tard going for a hike is run over and killed, you are liable for that death, even if it saved all 100 people on board of the airplane. You did it, so you are liable, regardless of the intentions. A neighborhood of people that know nothing about jet fuel would rightfully freak out when it starts raining from the sky. The pilot will probably be just fine. Plaintiff attorneys aren’t dumb, they know where they money is. They aren’t out to crucify the pilots, and that would be a tough argument to make anyway. Sue the airline, the airline settles with the plaintiffs, and that’s that. Drop 1 million bucks to disperse between the plaintiffs, because it will cost that much to defend it all the way to trial where they would lose anyway, Happens every day here in America.
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Within AM radio broadcast range of downtown Chicago
Age: 71
Posts: 839
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Reasonable minds may, and often do, hold divergent views on what ails the civil justice system (or, whether anything ails it).
It's not a veiled attitude of "close the courthouse doors to these people" to view a particular high-profile trial lawyer as an extreme version of how the system works most all the time (such workings, as OldnGrounded points out). Of course, along their way, such a lawyer becomes hugely accomplished, feared, even given "legend" ststus. I don't think other lawyers, though, necessarily are ineffective, despite a less intense approach.
But the point that concerns me - again, as atty-SLF - is that the furor arising along with the naturally expected claims could end up interfering with the focus on the inquiry (by the airline and the FAA). Maybe it is a situation where all the answers to what happened? and why? will turn out to be simple to find and simple to disseminate throughout civil aviation, despite the legal pressures. The amount and scope of substantive comments in this thread could suggest it might not be so simple, though.
It's not a veiled attitude of "close the courthouse doors to these people" to view a particular high-profile trial lawyer as an extreme version of how the system works most all the time (such workings, as OldnGrounded points out). Of course, along their way, such a lawyer becomes hugely accomplished, feared, even given "legend" ststus. I don't think other lawyers, though, necessarily are ineffective, despite a less intense approach.
But the point that concerns me - again, as atty-SLF - is that the furor arising along with the naturally expected claims could end up interfering with the focus on the inquiry (by the airline and the FAA). Maybe it is a situation where all the answers to what happened? and why? will turn out to be simple to find and simple to disseminate throughout civil aviation, despite the legal pressures. The amount and scope of substantive comments in this thread could suggest it might not be so simple, though.
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
But the point that concerns me - again, as atty-SLF - is that the furor arising along with the naturally expected claims could end up interfering with the focus on the inquiry (by the airline and the FAA). Maybe it is a situation where all the answers to what happened? and why? will turn out to be simple to find and simple to disseminate throughout civil aviation, despite the legal pressures.
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Within AM radio broadcast range of downtown Chicago
Age: 71
Posts: 839
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
High-profile lawsuits with strong "human interest" appeal can create pressures on investigations by government units, or internally by other organizations, which short-circuit the process or tend toward weakening their integrity. But FAA is beyond all that or at least deserves benefit of the doubt even after its possible role in the 737 Max debacle.
I'm still intrigued by how smart the programmers must be to create the pilotless algorithms that will consider and act upon information about compressor stalls and other engine status and performance problems, maximum weight parameters, runway length and condition, overwater flightpath or not, ATC inputs - weren't all these part of the information set the crew had to work with? It's wondering about what can be learned from a proper review of this incident that I had wanted to highlight, even if I'm completely wrong that a heavyweight tort lawsuit might detract from such a review (and was wrong obviously about FAA).
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
High-profile lawsuits with strong "human interest" appeal can create pressures on investigations by government units, or internally by other organizations, which short-circuit the process or tend toward weakening their integrity. But FAA is beyond all that or at least deserves benefit of the doubt even after its possible role in the 737 Max debacle.
Ask yourselves who has a need to know?
If it's a mechanical thingie then ask Boeing or wait to see if it was gross enough for an FAA AD action\
If it was a pilot failure to follow a Delta protocol it's a Delta problem and wait to see if it comes out in a public lawsuit otherwise it's internal alone
If it's a likely to be a repeated ATC problem then look for updates in guidelines to the ATC side
If it's a one off- then expect silence
other?
If it's a mechanical thingie then ask Boeing or wait to see if it was gross enough for an FAA AD action\
If it was a pilot failure to follow a Delta protocol it's a Delta problem and wait to see if it comes out in a public lawsuit otherwise it's internal alone
If it's a likely to be a repeated ATC problem then look for updates in guidelines to the ATC side
If it's a one off- then expect silence
other?
Ask yourselves who has a need to know?
If it's a mechanical thingie then ask Boeing or wait to see if it was gross enough for an FAA AD action\
If it was a pilot failure to follow a Delta protocol it's a Delta problem and wait to see if it comes out in a public lawsuit otherwise it's internal alone
If it's a likely to be a repeated ATC problem then look for updates in guidelines to the ATC side
If it's a one off- then expect silence
other?
If it's a mechanical thingie then ask Boeing or wait to see if it was gross enough for an FAA AD action\
If it was a pilot failure to follow a Delta protocol it's a Delta problem and wait to see if it comes out in a public lawsuit otherwise it's internal alone
If it's a likely to be a repeated ATC problem then look for updates in guidelines to the ATC side
If it's a one off- then expect silence
other?
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: Derry
Posts: 140
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Civil liability? He's probably protected by two things (at least): (1) Someone else -- the union, the employer, or his personal insurance carrier -- is going to foot the bills for defense and damages (if any) if he is named as an individual defendant; and (2) he probably doesn't have nearly deep enough pockets for plaintiffs to bother pursuing him aggressively.
The FAA and his employer may not be totally charmed by his actions, of course.
The FAA and his employer may not be totally charmed by his actions, of course.
If he followed Delta procedures he is home and dry
Airline might be sued.
If he didn't I think that it would be, as you say, between the employer and the pilot. And perhaps some helpful advice from the FAA who know about these things. As we have seen.
Now if it is so far outside the bounds of normal operation as to be deemed gross negligence, that gets a bit murkier.
Where I worked for a long time, and for more than one airline, the rules of engagement were pretty simple
Get it wrong and learn. Even quite serious things like a stall I have seen handled with great compassion and lots of training but no career limiting actions.
Get it wrong more than once , a bit more training or as they say in China, re-education and maybe a warning to listen up.
Get it wrong deliberately, then it moves up a gear. Example refusing to follow SOPs because you don' t like them. Frequent one that.
Hope it doesn't end badly for the crew since nobody sets out in the morning to screw up and normally if people do screw up in my experience, it is due to lack of training.
Some countries we have seen have gone for the crew legally - methinks Athens many years ago? Crew in jail? You may remember. Didn't Denzil Washington end up in court though and then in jail?
Cheers
R Guy
Guest
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: On the Beach
Posts: 3,336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Civil liability? He's probably protected by two things (at least): (1) Someone else -- the union, the employer, or his personal insurance carrier -- is going to foot the bills for defense and damages (if any) if he is named as an individual defendant; and (2) he probably doesn't have nearly deep enough pockets for plaintiffs to bother pursuing him aggressively.
The FAA and his employer may not be totally charmed by his actions, of course.
The FAA and his employer may not be totally charmed by his actions, of course.
The captain/the entire flight deck crew were actively involved in operation of the airplane. The NWA crew that fell asleep fell outside their civil protections accorded by their CBA.
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Within AM radio broadcast range of downtown Chicago
Age: 71
Posts: 839
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hmmm. Reference to CBAs leads to subject area of federal (RLA) labor law, and sequentially then to federal law pre-emption of state law tort claims in some cases.....this isn't to suggest that DAL could or should try to resist settlement payouts, but how much, to whom, and after what predicate evidence has been shown could be impacted by whether the airline lawyers think pre-emption is a viable position. Safe operation of the flight in accord with FARs ....well, not even the forum can lead me to do legal research for gratis (usually).
Or maybe I've just been discouraged by not finding the meaning of 20,000 FAAs.
Or maybe I've just been discouraged by not finding the meaning of 20,000 FAAs.
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Planet Earth
Posts: 146
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why ?
Airline Captains are expected to be intelligent
This one very young or overawed by instructions from the dreaded Chief Pilot Office, We just don't know at this time.
This one very young or overawed by instructions from the dreaded Chief Pilot Office, We just don't know at this time.
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Under the radar, over the rainbow
Posts: 788
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Perhaps I don't understand what you meant here, but, unless I'm confused . . .
Pretty much the entire community affected by the incident has a need to know, together with the public officials who serve and are responsible to the community. Sooner or later, they all will know, either because the information is shared voluntarily or because their attorneys drag it into the light in the discovery process.
Pretty much the entire community affected by the incident has a need to know, together with the public officials who serve and are responsible to the community. Sooner or later, they all will know, either because the information is shared voluntarily or because their attorneys drag it into the light in the discovery process.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: US
Posts: 2,205
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With the large number of retirements in 7-10 years those numbers will drop. Perhaps as low as 12-15 yrs with the company, 7-10 yrs as Captain on n/b aircraft, and only 20-25 yrs experience as a professional pilot. With few getting hired younger than 30 that means the 'new' and youngest LWB CA's we'll see on this side of the pond at the U.S. majors will still by at least 35, and perhaps at least 40, years old. With the average new hire being in their mid 30's a more common age would probably be 45-50.
No MPL or cadet programs, strict seniority lists, pay differential and trip quality difference on LWB vs domestic flying, minimum experience requirements o get hired, results in different outcomes on this side of the pond.
A greater possibility is that no one has more than a year's experience on the aircraft. I do not recall seeing that once in the 3+ years on the more senior aircraft with 3 man crews. Having one pilot with less than a year's experience in type isn't that uncommon. Having two with less than one years experience is very uncommon (twice in 3+ years?).
Few in the U.S. are overawed by the instructions from the CP. Given the short time frame of this event it would be a low probability that a CP even contacted the flight. In 30 yrs at my current job I've never heard of a CP contacting a flight without the Captain requesting the contact. Sometimes dispatch will ask questions, hints, or suggestions as they should but the 'top down' pressure isn't a high threat. That's before the union gets involved.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: USofA
Posts: 1,235
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We do know some things - at the large airlines in the U.S. the Captains flying the large twins (330/350/777/787) aren't very young or new to the game. My airline was 3 fleets and the youngest in each fleet is 54, 56, and 56. If you take away the bottom 5% the lowest age drops to 58, 58, and 59. The guy with the fewest years at the airline was hired in 1989. The years and ages might be slightly different at each airline but the overall numbers are similar.
With the large number of retirements in 7-10 years those numbers will drop. Perhaps as low as 12-15 yrs with the company, 7-10 yrs as Captain on n/b aircraft, and only 20-25 yrs experience as a professional pilot. With few getting hired younger than 30 that means the 'new' and youngest LWB CA's we'll see on this side of the pond at the U.S. majors will still by at least 35, and perhaps at least 40, years old. With the average new hire being in their mid 30's a more common age would probably be 45-50.
No MPL or cadet programs, strict seniority lists, pay differential and trip quality difference on LWB vs domestic flying, minimum experience requirements o get hired, results in different outcomes on this side of the pond.
A greater possibility is that no one has more than a year's experience on the aircraft. I do not recall seeing that once in the 3+ years on the more senior aircraft with 3 man crews. Having one pilot with less than a year's experience in type isn't that uncommon. Having two with less than one years experience is very uncommon (twice in 3+ years?).
Few in the U.S. are overawed by the instructions from the CP. Given the short time frame of this event it would be a low probability that a CP even contacted the flight. In 30 yrs at my current job I've never heard of a CP contacting a flight without the Captain requesting the contact. Sometimes dispatch will ask questions, hints, or suggestions as they should but the 'top down' pressure isn't a high threat. That's before the union gets involved.
With the large number of retirements in 7-10 years those numbers will drop. Perhaps as low as 12-15 yrs with the company, 7-10 yrs as Captain on n/b aircraft, and only 20-25 yrs experience as a professional pilot. With few getting hired younger than 30 that means the 'new' and youngest LWB CA's we'll see on this side of the pond at the U.S. majors will still by at least 35, and perhaps at least 40, years old. With the average new hire being in their mid 30's a more common age would probably be 45-50.
No MPL or cadet programs, strict seniority lists, pay differential and trip quality difference on LWB vs domestic flying, minimum experience requirements o get hired, results in different outcomes on this side of the pond.
A greater possibility is that no one has more than a year's experience on the aircraft. I do not recall seeing that once in the 3+ years on the more senior aircraft with 3 man crews. Having one pilot with less than a year's experience in type isn't that uncommon. Having two with less than one years experience is very uncommon (twice in 3+ years?).
Few in the U.S. are overawed by the instructions from the CP. Given the short time frame of this event it would be a low probability that a CP even contacted the flight. In 30 yrs at my current job I've never heard of a CP contacting a flight without the Captain requesting the contact. Sometimes dispatch will ask questions, hints, or suggestions as they should but the 'top down' pressure isn't a high threat. That's before the union gets involved.
Probably exactly what happened.
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: USofA
Posts: 1,235
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Wiggy you are going to make me look bad here if I can't recall exactly what messages appear but here is my best effort.
FUEL QTY and Jettison time show on the EICAS and the Fuel synoptic . The jettison system system will automatically reference this to the MLW but you can intervive by setting the MLW up or down with the Fuel To Remain switch, as I recall. I also seem to recall that putting the fuel jettison into motion will cause the Fuel synoptic to display as well. so that whne you have finished with the LANDING Electronic Check List it would reappear if you were still dumping fuel.
I don't have my FCOM or QRH so I'm going from memory
