Delta emergency @ LAX, dumps fuel on school playground.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Boeing has a classic article about the decision whether to dump fuel or land overweight. I believe a version of this paper has been around for at least three decades. The verbiage in this article finds its way into many airline ops and training manuals. I'll attach a .pdf of Boeing's 'Overweight Landing? Fuel Jettison? What to Consider' to this post.
Delta had compressor stalls on a B-762 out of LAX in 1987. It was the tail end of the Sky-God cowboy era and before that new-fangled CRM had taken hold in the training building off Virginia Avenue. Without a checklist or comment, the captain reached over to turn off the EEC switches which at that time were on the center pedestal. He had a little finger trouble and shut down both engines instead.
The RAT popped out, they got both engines relit (below 1000 feet
)) and after consulting Flight Ops in ATL (Captain Alger?) they pressed on to CVG with the RAT merrily humming away.Like everyone else, I'm puzzled why Delta 89 would dump fuel on final even if they had lost an engine. It looks like you have to deliberately arm the jettison system and then open the nozzles to get the dump going. Any Triple drivers care to comment? wiggy, I see you just did, thanks.
Last edited by Airbubba; 15th Jan 2020 at 15:22.
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Under the radar, over the rainbow
Posts: 788
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: USofA
Posts: 1,235
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The fuel jettison system will automatically dump down to MLW when activated and the system dumps out of the center tank first. No it's not possible to empty the wing tanks during fuel jettison and lastly when dumping the EICAS has a visual display to alert you of the dump in progressive's and as i recall time remaining.
Unless you really like flying around over the water on a single engine, the recommended action is to land as soon as possible. I have flown that arrival routing at least 1000 times in evrything from the DC6 to the 777, and frankly I haver noticed any schools, to busy looking for traffic.
Unless you really like flying around over the water on a single engine, the recommended action is to land as soon as possible.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Stand pipes
The kit I flew had stand pipes on the jettison pump feeds which were a fair bit above the bottom of the tanks so that you could only jettison down to a certain level.
There was an infamous incident ex LAX which landed in Manchester where the guys put out a mayday after the cross feeding checklist was changed to use the jettison pumps and the heavy crew erroneously believed they were going to loose a second and third donk of final approach due to fuel starvation. As it was there is a safety feature which allowed the tank with fuel to suction feed iirc.
There was an infamous incident ex LAX which landed in Manchester where the guys put out a mayday after the cross feeding checklist was changed to use the jettison pumps and the heavy crew erroneously believed they were going to loose a second and third donk of final approach due to fuel starvation. As it was there is a safety feature which allowed the tank with fuel to suction feed iirc.
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We don't know the nature of the emergency. But the plaintiff attorneys for the kids doused in Jet A will say the pilots could have dumped fuel over the great blue Pacific, Or just landed overweight and damaged the aircraft instead raining it down upon the poor children of East LA. No serious injuries or fatalities, so Delta will settle quietly and quickly to get ahead of it.
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 63
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Forgetting is pretty easy in a high workload environment. Its pretty easy to reach task saturation when you're dealing with an engine failure over a populated area in very busy airspace at a congested airport.
This can happen to anyone at any time, just takes a single task more than you can deal with and this has happened in the past to very experienced air crew, eastern 401 is an example of this, unfortunately there the pilots forgot to aviate first.
This can happen to anyone at any time, just takes a single task more than you can deal with and this has happened in the past to very experienced air crew, eastern 401 is an example of this, unfortunately there the pilots forgot to aviate first.
Forgive me for asking (I'm not a commercial pilot) but why would the relief crew be in the cockpit and not in the cabin with the SLF (other than to save seats for the paying passengers)?
Last edited by golfbananajam; 15th Jan 2020 at 16:10. Reason: correcting typo
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
An 'expert' tells USA Today that the decision to dump fuel 'was not an easy call'. In fairness, he probably has not heard the ATC recordings and is perhaps trying to give generic bullet point sound bites.
USA TODAY updated 11:50 am January 15, 2020
The Delta pilots who bombarded elementary school playgrounds with jet fuel before making an emergency landing at Los Angeles International Airport probably did what needed to be done to ensure the safety of the passengers and crew, a former National Transportation Safety Board official said Wednesday.
Delta made national news Tuesday when pilots of Flight 89 bound for Shanghai dumped the fuel before making a successful emergency landing moments after takeoff. Delta said the twin-engine Boeing 777 had experienced engine problems.
Scores of people on the ground, including students at multiple elementary schools, were treated for eye and skin irritation, Los Angeles County fire officials said. Decontamination stations were set up, but no injuries required hospitalization, authorities said.
"A 777 flying nonstop to Shanghai is absolutely loaded with fuel," said Peter Goelz, a former NTSB managing director. "So loaded that to land right away after takeoff poses a significant danger."
Goelz, who is not involved in the investigation, said protocols normally call for fuel to be dumped over water and/or at an altitude of 10,000 feet so it can disperse and minimize environmental damage. But the rules change for a very heavy plane urgently needing to get back on the ground, he said.Goelz said that every pilot knows the story of Swissair Flight 111, a Geneva-bound MD-11 out of New York that plummeted into the Atlantic Ocean off Nova Scotia on Sept. 2, 1998. None of the 229 people aboard survived. The crew had called in an emergency but was flying away from an airport so it could dump fuel over water when it crashed.
"Pilots know that when you have a problem that threatens the aircraft and you have to get rid of fuel, you get rid of it fast," he said. "You don't want things like this (contamination) to happen, but the alternative is too dire."
The FAA said it was investigating the fuel dump, noting that procedures call for fuel to be dumped over "designated unpopulated areas, typically at higher altitudes so the fuel atomizes and disperses before it reaches the ground.
Delta said the unexplained engine issue required the plane to "return quickly" to LAX.
"The aircraft landed safely after a release of fuel, which was required as part of normal procedure to reach a safe landing weight," Delta said.The airline said it was in touch with the airport and fire officials and expressed concern over "minor injuries" to adults and children.
The smell of jet fuel wafted through some neighborhoods.
Los Angeles Unified School Board Vice President Jackie Goldberg was "shocked and angered" at the fuel dump over the Park Avenue Elementary School playground in Cudahy and promised to closely monitor the investigation.
"I am sorry our school community had to go through this very scary incident today," Goldberg said.
Goelz was willing to give the pilots the benefit of the doubt, at least for now.
"Right off the bat, I would not be criticizing the crew until I have more information," he said. "It was not an easy call."
"A 777 flying nonstop to Shanghai is absolutely loaded with fuel," said Peter Goelz, a former NTSB managing director. "So loaded that to land right away after takeoff poses a significant danger."
"Pilots know that when you have a problem that threatens the aircraft and you have to get rid of fuel, you get rid of it fast," he said. "You don't want things like this (contamination) to happen, but the alternative is too dire."
"Pilots know that when you have a problem that threatens the aircraft and you have to get rid of fuel, you get rid of it fast," he said. "You don't want things like this (contamination) to happen, but the alternative is too dire."
'It was not an easy call': Here's why that Delta jet dumped fuel over schools near Los Angeles
John BaconUSA TODAY updated 11:50 am January 15, 2020
The Delta pilots who bombarded elementary school playgrounds with jet fuel before making an emergency landing at Los Angeles International Airport probably did what needed to be done to ensure the safety of the passengers and crew, a former National Transportation Safety Board official said Wednesday.
Delta made national news Tuesday when pilots of Flight 89 bound for Shanghai dumped the fuel before making a successful emergency landing moments after takeoff. Delta said the twin-engine Boeing 777 had experienced engine problems.
Scores of people on the ground, including students at multiple elementary schools, were treated for eye and skin irritation, Los Angeles County fire officials said. Decontamination stations were set up, but no injuries required hospitalization, authorities said.
"A 777 flying nonstop to Shanghai is absolutely loaded with fuel," said Peter Goelz, a former NTSB managing director. "So loaded that to land right away after takeoff poses a significant danger."
Goelz, who is not involved in the investigation, said protocols normally call for fuel to be dumped over water and/or at an altitude of 10,000 feet so it can disperse and minimize environmental damage. But the rules change for a very heavy plane urgently needing to get back on the ground, he said.Goelz said that every pilot knows the story of Swissair Flight 111, a Geneva-bound MD-11 out of New York that plummeted into the Atlantic Ocean off Nova Scotia on Sept. 2, 1998. None of the 229 people aboard survived. The crew had called in an emergency but was flying away from an airport so it could dump fuel over water when it crashed.
"Pilots know that when you have a problem that threatens the aircraft and you have to get rid of fuel, you get rid of it fast," he said. "You don't want things like this (contamination) to happen, but the alternative is too dire."
The FAA said it was investigating the fuel dump, noting that procedures call for fuel to be dumped over "designated unpopulated areas, typically at higher altitudes so the fuel atomizes and disperses before it reaches the ground.
Delta said the unexplained engine issue required the plane to "return quickly" to LAX.
"The aircraft landed safely after a release of fuel, which was required as part of normal procedure to reach a safe landing weight," Delta said.The airline said it was in touch with the airport and fire officials and expressed concern over "minor injuries" to adults and children.
The smell of jet fuel wafted through some neighborhoods.
Los Angeles Unified School Board Vice President Jackie Goldberg was "shocked and angered" at the fuel dump over the Park Avenue Elementary School playground in Cudahy and promised to closely monitor the investigation.
"I am sorry our school community had to go through this very scary incident today," Goldberg said.
Goelz was willing to give the pilots the benefit of the doubt, at least for now.
"Right off the bat, I would not be criticizing the crew until I have more information," he said. "It was not an easy call."
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Rockytop, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 5,898
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Everywhere I've been has the relief pilot in the cockpit for takeoff and landing. But I've seen some creative seat swaps and in one case the 'bunkie' went back almost as soon as the wheels were up. And I saw one crew from a base that didn't normally fly augmented never swap out of the pilot seats.
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Toronto
Age: 57
Posts: 531
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Back in 1988 at Gatwick, CO31, a B742, had a No 4 engine surge and loss of thrust at very close to MTOW on lift off and the FE immediately commenced fuel dumping. Aircraft pitched up to 22 degrees and descended towards rising ground before establishing a climb profile and reaching a safe height.
AAIB report:
https://assets.publishing.service.go...989_N605PE.pdf
AAIB report:
https://assets.publishing.service.go...989_N605PE.pdf
Join Date: Jun 2019
Location: Tana
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Goelz said that every pilot knows the story of Swissair Flight 111, a Geneva-bound MD-11 out of New York that plummeted into the Atlantic Ocean off Nova Scotia on Sept. 2, 1998. None of the 229 people aboard survived. The crew had called in an emergency but was flying away from an airport so it could dump fuel over water when it crashed.
"Pilots know that when you have a problem that threatens the aircraft and you have to get rid of fuel, you get rid of it fast," he said. "You don't want things like this (contamination) to happen, but the alternative is too dire."
"Pilots know that when you have a problem that threatens the aircraft and you have to get rid of fuel, you get rid of it fast," he said. "You don't want things like this (contamination) to happen, but the alternative is too dire."
PS I will give Mr.Goelz the benefit of the doubt, however, because whorenalists, especially from a well-established tabloid like USA Today, could have misquoted him "for drama purposes".
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: USVI
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This whole thing cracks me up! Kids getting "struck" by fuel mist...wow!
Pilots aware of school locations??? Pretty sure the crew was busy with other issues aside from what was under them...Whats next, schools on the obstacle list?
Dump fuel over unpopulated area in LA???? Good luck!
I remember the old days, when fuel was cheap, aircraft routinely dumped fuel on approach. I lived on the FP to Lindbergh Field and my car as always covered in oil.
Pilots aware of school locations??? Pretty sure the crew was busy with other issues aside from what was under them...Whats next, schools on the obstacle list?
Dump fuel over unpopulated area in LA???? Good luck!
I remember the old days, when fuel was cheap, aircraft routinely dumped fuel on approach. I lived on the FP to Lindbergh Field and my car as always covered in oil.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: norway
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
fuel dump
From Wikpedia...
"United Airlines Flight 173 was a scheduled flight from John F. ... On December 28, 1978, the aircraft flying this route ran out of fuel while troubleshooting a landing gear problem and crashed in a suburban Portland neighborhood near NE 157th Avenue and East Burnside Street killing 10 people."
I believe that this was a DC8. It was dumping fuel and ran out on the way back to PDX
"United Airlines Flight 173 was a scheduled flight from John F. ... On December 28, 1978, the aircraft flying this route ran out of fuel while troubleshooting a landing gear problem and crashed in a suburban Portland neighborhood near NE 157th Avenue and East Burnside Street killing 10 people."
I believe that this was a DC8. It was dumping fuel and ran out on the way back to PDX
Join Date: Mar 2015
Location: North by Northwest
Posts: 476
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Locals everywhere would and should be concerned with their kids not only wearing but ingesting Jet A into their lungs!
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Belgium
Age: 39
Posts: 36
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts