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Close call + ATC link at JFK

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Close call + ATC link at JFK

Old 17th Jan 2020, 12:06
  #41 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Uplinker View Post
Yeah, there are things we all try to do to mitigate problems as much as possible. If you radio Ramp at 30nm or more out to find your gate and you tell Tower which entry point on landing, by which time the gate has changed.........you are back to square one.

If Tower and Ground had a screen they could glance at* when you vacate the runway and see where your gate is, they could simply issue taxi instructions without the extra "which is your gate" question and answer. clogging up the airwaves. Many other airfields manage to do this, and I assume that KJFK have very experienced ATCOs, so surely not beyond their capability ?

My point is ATC should be directing us, not the other way round.

I usually find KJFK difficult, and assumed it was me being thick, but others are saying they find it difficult too.

*Actually, isn't the gate written on the strip, electronic or otherwise?
UP, no because ATC has no control over terminal gate assignment. In JFK the IAT will assign gates usually based on what is available at the time as i understand it. The less they have control over the the better they like it. If the terminal is pretty much one airline, Ramp control for said airline runs that, not to say that is the best operation. I have sat on the ramp waiting for the ‘assigned gate’ for over 50 minutes with more than a dozen open...🙄. Unless you can get right in to your ramp area, GND will drive you around the airport to keep traffic moving. So when they ask your gate assignment after you land, they can work out the best/efficient way of getting you in while getting the outbounds to the RWY.
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Old 18th Jan 2020, 10:09
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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Yep, that's precisely the point...Time to change those rubbish ways. For safety's sake:

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Old 18th Jan 2020, 12:53
  #43 (permalink)  
 
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@atr-drivr

Hi, I think we are talking at cross purposes. I am not talking about who controls gate assignments, I am talking about how that information gets to the Ground controller.

Everything you are talking about could be done much more safely by ATC Ground either looking on a screen or by the ATC Ground assistant phoning Ramp on the landline or intercom.

I am simply saying that the taxiing aircraft crews themselves should not have to contact Ramp on box 2 during a high workload situation at a challenging airfield that requires a very good lookout with both pairs of eyes, and both pairs of ears listening to the taxi instructions.

Last edited by Uplinker; 18th Jan 2020 at 13:06.
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Old 18th Jan 2020, 23:33
  #44 (permalink)  
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After twenty years of flying on a UK licence, I finally took my ATP. I'd lived in the US for chunks of my life but still found ATC a very real problem. It struck me they were vying for a Joe Cool award - with extra points for quantity.


Uplinker.
. . . Some US controllers talk as if their hair is on fire . . . and I never really know if this is because they are stressed or are trying to impress someone . . .
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Old 19th Jan 2020, 08:40
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Trying to impress!
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Old 24th Jan 2020, 01:14
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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The reason for the question of gate assignment is to be able to provide a taxi instruction towards the appropriate ramp entrance. The introduction of a taxi instruction that will point the aircraft away from the entrance will lead to ac stopping in the intersection and questioning the ground controller. There was a certain large foreign flag carrier that would routinely land on 31R, exit at the taxiway which connected to the primary entrance to their terminal and stop, not clear of the runway. The crew was talking to the ramp as the following aircraft was sent around.
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Old 24th Jan 2020, 04:08
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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It just seems rather tail-wagging-dog to ask the pilots where they’re going. Would it be too complex to create a system where the controllers already KNOW where the aircraft need to Park? Perhaps some sort of data transfer system between the airlines, airport and ATC*. Seems to work in other parts of the world.

*that’ll be $2m in consultancy fees please payable in Bitcoin
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Old 24th Jan 2020, 08:02
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Ahem, I thought of it first ! see posts #25 and #39

However, as you say, at every other airport in the Northern hemisphere (I have ever operated to or from): Ground knows where my gate is without having to ask, and they send us the right way.
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Old 24th Jan 2020, 08:46
  #49 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Uplinker View Post
Ahem, I thought of it first ! see posts #25 and #39

However, as you say, at every other airport in the Northern hemisphere (I have ever operated to or from): Ground knows where my gate is without having to ask, and they send us the right way.
"But the company owns the ramp!". Guess what: nobody cares who owns the ramp.
And Northern Hemisphere? It's the entire world isn't it? If they can manage it in Mumbai, I'm pretty sure they can in New York too.
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Old 24th Jan 2020, 11:57
  #50 (permalink)  
 
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. . . Some US controllers talk as if their hair is on fire . . .
Going back nearly 50 years: a British-registered B707 is descending into LAX. The Capt is a Polish war veteran who flew in the RAF so English is not his first language. LAX Approach are giving them (and many other flights) a continual stream of vectors and altitude changes, all delivered in machine-gun staccato in non-ICAO English. Exasperated Capt turns to F/O and plaintively says: "Chris, what is happening?"
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Old 24th Jan 2020, 13:36
  #51 (permalink)  
 
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Going back nearly 50 years: a British-registered B707 is descending into LAX. The Capt is a Polish war veteran who flew in the RAF so English is not his first language. LAX Approach are giving them (and many other flights) a continual stream of vectors and altitude changes, all delivered in machine-gun staccato in non-ICAO English. Exasperated Capt turns to F/O and plaintively says: "Chris, what is happening?"

Sounds like Capt Jeziorski. Nice guy!
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Old 24th Jan 2020, 13:46
  #52 (permalink)  
 
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Sounds like Capt Jeziorski. Nice guy!
You might very well think that; I couldn't possibly comment! ( Francis Urquhart, House of Cards)
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Old 24th Jan 2020, 19:15
  #53 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Dan Dare View Post
It just seems rather tail-wagging-dog to ask the pilots where they’re going. Would it be too complex to create a system where the controllers already KNOW where the aircraft need to Park? Perhaps some sort of data transfer system between the airlines, airport and ATC*. Seems to work in other parts of the world.

*that’ll be $2m in consultancy fees please payable in Bitcoin
In Europe it exists , it is called SWIM .( a Eurocontrol tool )
The main issue as I see it , is that , in many large airports nowadays , ATC manages only the maneuvering area (runways-taxi ways) , and a separate (private) company manages the apron and the gates. In a very large airport ( like JFK) gate management is complex and ATC tries to get rid of it. Sending an aircraft to the wrong gate or worse, a gate already occupied and you can block everything. ATC got rid of than problem and in my view is unlikely to ask for it back.
As to US controllers speaking too fast and in slang, I witnessed once an Iberia A340-600 subjected to this who just stopped taxing, when the controller asked him why he stopped, he replied ." If you can speak slower I can taxi faster."..
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Old 25th Jan 2020, 05:00
  #54 (permalink)  
 
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If a few more pilots did that, maybe US ATCOs might learn!!
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Old 25th Jan 2020, 16:06
  #55 (permalink)  

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Thankfully, I rarely have to operate in and out of JFK these days as that route is on a different fleet. However, every time I have operated in and out of JFK I still start a 'threat and error management briefing' with "third world* ATC, including Ground Control" and that it needs mitigating.

Fully agree with all the comments above that point out how absurd it is for pilots to have to go to another frequency immediately after landing in order to tell ATC what gate they're expecting to park on and whether that gate is occupied or not. I just wonder how many times that problem and the associated danger has been highlighted to the FAA or other authorities. No doubt when a major accident occurs, this will be one of the major holes that lined up as a causal factor.

* Apologies to third world ATC where I doubt it is ever quite that bad although accents can be troublesome at times.
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