Ukrainian Aircraft down in Iran

[Lord Farringdon]

Iran plane crash: 'More time needed for investigation' - Ukraine

What does Ukraine say?

Let's put all this hyperbole to rest about Iranian authorities covering up, bulldozers destroying evidence and investigators arriving with nothing to investigate. Let's accept we have two possibilities, one a technical issue and two a missile shoot down of which latter seems to have more supporting evidence even if circumstantial. Let's quit with all the reasons why a missile shoot down might have occurred since there is no one on this forum who has any idea of what went on and never will until the final report comes out. Some of the fantasies, conspiracy's, and emotional clap trap that is being put forward as fact has no place on a technical forum such as this.

This is an ​ extract taken from a BBC report filed just 6 hours ago from my posting. Let's actually listen to these Ukrainian guys and do what they say "stop the speculation". These guys have been there, done that and looks like they have the resources, Iranian cooperation and the experience to help the Iranian investigation team through this. Please stop bagging the investigators and putting politics into this investigation. Go to Reddit or Imgur if you want to do that. The time to judge the quality of the investigation is when they release their final report. I have bold emphasized the relevant parts. There seems to be a lot of relevant parts!!

At Friday's news briefing in Ukraine's capital Kyiv, Mr Prystaiko reiterated that at this stage Ukrainian investigators were not ruling out any possible cause of the crash.

But he called for the "level of speculation" to be reduced, adding that Ukraine wanted to establish an "international coalition" to conduct a thorough investigation.

Mr Prystaiko said nearly 50 Ukrainian investigators were already working in Iran, and there was "full co-operation" from Tehran.

"We are analysing pieces of the body of the plane, we are analysing the bodies of the people who died in the crash.

"We are analysing the chemical residues on the body of the plane. We will come to our conclusion, we don't want to come to them right now.

"Our team has now got access to the black boxes," he said, stressing that Ukraine wanted them to be analysed in Kyiv.

Iran earlier said it would download the information itself, adding that the process could take up to two months.

Kyiv earlier said the US had passed on "important data" about the crash, without providing any further details.

Ukraine's team in Iran includes experts who worked on the investigation into the 2014 downing by a missile of Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 in eastern Ukraine.

Edit: I should add that there are experts on this forum, obviously pilots and aircraft engineering, other aviation specialists, and in other fields whose technical and professional advice and contribution to the subject has and always will be welcome. They add a lot of value and provide a factual framework around which the rest of us can phrase our questions and offer our opinions..based on fact and with the benefit of those experts knowledge and experience .

[Airbubba]

Looks like the accident site has indeed been cleared before international investigators arrive. And before the cause of the crash is announced at the beginning of the investigation according to the FARS News Agency.

From CNN:

Iran plane crash site has been cleared of most wreckage, images show

By Eliza Mackintosh, Joshua Berlinger, Radina Gigova and Angela Dewan, CNN

Updated 7:59 PM ET, Fri January 10, 2020(CNN)The field in Iran where a Ukrainian aircraft crashed two days ago has been cleared of most of the wreckage, and the public has been trawling through what's left behind, new images shared with CNN show.


The crash site in Laleh Park, Shahedshahr.





A soccer field near the crash site.




The photos, taken near a soccer field in Laleh Park in the town of Shahedshahr on Friday, point to a clear lack of security at the site, just a day after western intelligence officials said Iran shot down the jet with surface-to-air missiles. Iran has denied any hostile act, calling the assessment a "big lie."

Normally, forensic officers from major investigative organizations would be poring over the wreckage to see it in its natural state before removing it to a secure area.An eyewitness at the crash site told CNN on Friday that looters and "garbage men" were "wandering around," picking up debris, objects made of aluminum and anything else deemed valuable, as police and Revolutionary Guard Corps tried to disperse them.

The head of Iran's Civil Aviation Authority Ali Abedzadeh told CNN on Friday that fragments of the plane had been taken to a hangar off-site to "reconstruct" it for "investigating the cause of the crash," and that the remains of victims had been sent to a forensic lab for DNA testing.

Ukraine's Foreign Minister Vadym Prystaiko told CNN news partner CTV News that Ukrainian investigators had been missing the chairs from the plane, but that they were now beginning to get them from Iranian authorities. The investigators need to check parts for chemical residue, "which would allow us to indicate there was some chemical used in explosives," hesaid.

Debris, including passengers' personal items, at the scene.




He told CNN that his country is not ruling out terrorism and is checking to see whether a bomb was on the plane.
The foreign minister said there was a delay before the plane departed the gate during which some luggage was taken off the plane. He said Ukraine wants to know why.

He added, "as soon as we have something to share we will do it we understand people have to know the truth."

Fight data recorders from Ukrainian airliner shown at press conference in Tehran.

Speaking at the White House on Friday, US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo said Washington believes it is "likely" that Iran was responsible for the downing of the Boeing 737-800 and that an "appropriate response" would be meted out when a "final determination" is made.

CNN obtained a video that appears to show a missile strike an object in Tehran's night sky, around the same time that the Ukrainian plane crashed early Wednesday, and separate footage that captures the moment of the crash in Shahedshahr.
The crash came just hours after Iran fired missiles at Iraqi military bases housing US troops in retaliation for a drone strike at Baghdad airport that killed Iranian commander Qasem Soleimani, who was one of Iran's most powerful and influential military leaders.

Pilot's last words emerge

All 176 people on board the Boeing 737-800 were killed when the Kiev-bound plane crashed shortly after taking off from Imam Khomeini Airport. The victims include 82 Iranians, 63 Canadians, 11 Ukrainians, 10 Swedes, four Afghans, three Germans and three British nationals.

Iranian authorities are in possession of the two flight data recorders, also known as black boxes, which Prystaiko said Ukrainian investigators have seen but don't have access to. He added that Iran was, however, cooperating, and that he expected Ukraine could "extract and analyze" the data and recordings.

The last words of the pilot were "peaceful and that everything was OK," he said.

Prystaiko said Ukrainian investigators have access to the recording of the conversation between the control tower and the Ukrainian International Airlines crew.

The recent escalated hostilities between the US and Iran have complicated the thorny task of investigating the crash. US government investigators, for example, cannot fly into Tehran and meet with government officials without a license. That prohibition is due to longstanding sanctions rather than the most recent events, according to two US officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity.

Pompeo and Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin announced on Friday that President Donald Trump was authorizing yet more sanctions on Iran.

The Iranian government, which under international protocol has control of the investigation, had earlier said it would not work with the US or Boeing in the probe, but on Friday reversed its position.

If Iranian authorities are unable to reconstruct and analyze the information from the fight data recorders, they said they would seek help from international partners Russia, France, Canada or Ukraine.

Ukrainian investigators were given access to the black boxes on Friday, according to Ukraine's foreign minister, but had yet to start examining the information, which includes recordings of communications between the pilot and Tehran flight control.

[Rated De]

There have been news reports that many of the passengers were leaving Iran for fear of a war. The airplane had been delayed, but finally permitted to depart. Why was it delayed? Why was it important that it depart? What kind of decision-making was in play prior to departure and could there be any relationship to the decision to lock up and launch SAMs? Could there have been multiple Iranian government and military agencies involved with different agendas? Just questions, no assertions. Let’s remember though that solid evidence has not been provided.

Firstly, dual Canadian Iranian citizens, due the sanctions and airspace constraints have, despite the theatre found a way back and forth: That is through Ukraine.
The airport is secure and visiting Iran one quickly realises that western airport "security theatre" is for show.
Delays, with respect to clearances are commonplace, the airport operates 24 hours a day.

Perhaps, as sad as it is a mistake was made.
It is not good optics for Iran to clean up the site, however the USA also obfuscated with the USS Vincennes. Allied pilots shadowing USS Vincennes as it headed back home after the shoot down of Iran Air 655, were incorrectly identified numerous times despite the appropriate IFF responses. Mistakes can and will be made.

The sad thing is there is human cost for all the bellicose rhetoric, when despite the scenes what now emerges were the Swiss embassy in Tehran playing shuttle diplomats conveying messages back and forward.

[dave.rooney]

I'm seeing tweets from various sources (and, as I type this, from western news agencies) saying that Iran state television is now admitting that PS752 was shot down by a missile fired in error.

[Lord Farringdon]

Originally Posted by dave.rooney

I'm seeing tweets from various sources (and, as I type this, from western news agencies) saying that Iran state television is now admitting that PS752 was shot down by a missile fired in error.

Heres one from the NZ Herald

Iran has announced its military 'unintentionally' shot down a Ukrainian jetliner, killing all 176 aboard.

The statement came Saturday morning local time and blamed "human error" for the shootdown.

The jetliner, a Boeing 737 operated by Ukrainian International Airlines, went down on the outskirts of Tehran during takeoff just hours after Iran launched a barrage of missiles at US forces.

Iran had denied for several days that a missile downed the aircraft. But then the US and Canada, citing intelligence, said they believe Iran shot down the aircraft.

[Titania]

The plane turned on the same route as other planes. They're hiding they had a trigger happy team targeting any plane just for revenge & the hell of it after the US strikes. It was intentional not an error. Pic is accident plane & two of the same flights on previous days.

[India Four Two]

Iran plane crash: Ukrainian jet was 'unintentionally' shot down - state TV
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-51073621

[YukonHusky]

After the Civil Aviation Organisation of Iran's dramatic reversal, what's the likelihood the CVR undermined prior explanations regarding UIA's PS752's downing?

[GarageYears]

Well that puts the speculation to bed. And particularly all those trying to come up with convoluted explanations. In this world of billions of smart phones the idea that someone will hit video record when something odd happens should be accepted as normal.

- GY

[pattern_is_full]

Iran 'fessed up. Perhaps "cooperating with the inevitable" - but there are some that never have.

[Airbubba]

Originally Posted by YukonHusky

After the Civil Aviation Organisation of Iran's dramatic reversal, what's the likelihood the CVR undermined prior explanations regarding UIA's PS752's downing?

One would think that Iran had other indicators like launched SAM's as evidence before the CVR was ever read.

[sheikhthecamel]

Originally Posted by Wind_Tunnel

If it was brought down by a SAM, it had to have been intentional. These things don't happen by accident in Iran any more than they could ever happen in the US by accident. Any other SAM theory is so absurd, it's sad.

So absurd that the Iranian government has admitted to the accidental shoot-down.

“A sad day. Preliminary conclusions of internal investigation by armed forces: human error at time of crisis caused by US adventurism led to disaster. Our profound regrets, apologies and condolences to our people, to the families of all victims, and to other affected nations.” Iranian foreign minister, Javad Zarif,

[Tokyo Geoff]

Some points from the Iranian statement:

* "human error”
* a promise to bring those who made the mistake to justice and make reforms in its air defence system.
* "Iran’s armed forces were at the highest alert levels to respond to threats by the US president and armed forces to hit back [at] many targets in Iran in case of [Iran’s] retaliation,”
* the aircraft “while turning, looked like getting close to a sensitive military centre of the guards” which radar systems identified as a “hostile object . . . and by human error and unintentionally shot down the plane "

[fox niner]

I have a feeling that this quick outcome was only possible because of the internet. That includes sites such as Bellingcat, Twitter and.....Pprune. Collective kudo’s to all you guys for your persistence.
Apparently in this modern age, you really can not get away with it any more. Too many recording iphones in too many hands. You can not deny the truth forever.
Next: the truth on MH17.

[wheels_down]

Im not overly buying the whole ‘coming close to Military areas...’ line.

Its the main departure route out of the airport. So I assume whoever fired it was one of the imported extras to assist who have never operated in this base/area before and came in with the mindset shoot...shoot...shoot..anything that moves

[nonsense]

There's a world of difference between unintended consequences and foreseeable outcomes. While missiles flying, even missiles flying with innocent victims, was foreseeable, this particular outcome was not.

[UltraFan]

I have to praise the Iranian leadership for their behavior in this unbelivable situation. Only three days after the tragedy they not only admitted their fault but also apologized for it. It is in sharp contrast to US and Ukraine in similar occurrences.

After USS Vincennes shot down Iran Air Flight 655, US denied the fact for years, and still haven't admitted the fault. Even after it was proven that it was the American ship that shot down the plane, the US president said he "won't apologize for America". And, in the most bizzare move, the people who shot down a passenger plane received military awards.

Ukraine shot down Siberia Airlines 1812, denied the fact for years, and still only admits that it "may have" done it.

Kudos to the Iranian government and military who found enough courage to admit their mistake and are planning full investigation.

[Rated De]

Originally Posted by UltraFan

I have to praise the Iranian leadership for their behavior in this unbelivable situation. Only three days after the tragedy they not only admitted their fault but also apologized for it. It is in sharp contrast to US and Ukraine in similar occurrences.

After USS Vincennes shot down Iran Air Flight 655, US denied the fact for years, and still haven't admitted the fault. Even after it was proven that it was the American ship that shot down the plane, the US president said he "won't apologize for America". And, in the most bizzare move, the people who shot down a passenger plane received military awards.

Ukraine shot down Siberia Airlines 1812, denied the fact for years, and still only admits that it "may have" done it.

Kudos to the Iranian government and military who found enough courage to admit their mistake and are planning full investigation.

Yes for what comfort it offers the families of those poor folk aboard, at least this offers some sense of understanding and accountability.

Certainly no apologist for the post revolution Iranian "government" but getting in front of this is not only the right thing to do, it also defuses any mileage some of the more nefarious commentators might have tried to make.

[jolihokistix]

Agreed that Iran has come clean on this 'relatively' quickly. Good for them.
In their announcement it still claims that the aircraft 'turned' towards a sensitive military installation. Is there any evidence (that we have not yet seen here) that it turned before the first impact?

[Tegularius]

Originally Posted by UltraFan

I have to praise the Iranian leadership for their behavior in this unbelivable situation. Only three days after the tragedy they not only admitted their fault but also apologized for it. It is in sharp contrast to US and Ukraine in similar occurrences.

After USS Vincennes shot down Iran Air Flight 655, US denied the fact for years, and still haven't admitted the fault. Even after it was proven that it was the American ship that shot down the plane, the US president said he "won't apologize for America". And, in the most bizzare move, the people who shot down a passenger plane received military awards.

Ukraine shot down Siberia Airlines 1812, denied the fact for years, and still only admits that it "may have" done it.

Kudos to the Iranian government and military who found enough courage to admit their mistake and are planning full investigation.

That is not correct. We admitted to shooting down the IAF 655 immediately. President Reagan sent a statement expressing deep regrets within days. What was disputed was the legal liability. There were ongoing hostilities. We had taken fire from Iranian gunboats.