Plane crashes near Kazakhstan airport

[Retired DC9 driver]

Originally Posted by Strumble Head

A quick thank you to the informed sources who have commented to date (and those to come.) As a confirmed PPRuNe lurker with long experience in various facets of aviation ops, it was a shock to me to realise that I'd never had to get into the fine detail of what determines the need for de-icing on the ground, nor how it gets done in today's world.

So the steers to relevant sources have been invaluable. I've also been reminded that safe operations in icing or snowy conditions are very expensive in time, direct cost and indirect cost (people time, reduced throughput etc.)

This brought back a memory of being SLF on a jet where the first de-icing was not successful. There were well-meant if ignorant suggestions from some (management) quarters, keen to see the aircraft depart, that 'most' areas met standard and this was good enough.

This provoked some very very blunt responses for which I am now even more grateful. Classic situation where ground engineering and/or PIC can come under an awful lot of pressure to cut corners.

I operated a DC-9 32 flight into EWR one dark night. Supposed to be a quick turnaround. I went out for the walkaround, as Captain. Icy ramp, with light freezing rain coming down. So I talked to station manager, and said we "will need Type IV deicing wing and tail".
He informed me that they don't have any Type IV available, only Type 3 fluid. . Well I said in that case, we are going to the Hotel, and can he arrange crew transport ?
He came up to cockpit later, as I was talking to the F/O. Apparently he had "found " enough Type IV to use after all. So I told the Station Manager, I wanted to see him , standing in front of the aircraft , as it was deiced to ensure, (not trusting contract deice crew) that both wings and tail were given a proper overspray of Type IV fluid at the end.

If our 45 minute holdover time had been exceeded, before we could takeoff, we would have returned to the gate. Period.

[MichaelKPIT]

Originally Posted by Willie Everlearn

Did we not learn about the “clean wing” concept following the Air Florida accident in Washington waaaaay back in the early 80s?

Willie Everlearn

No. we did not:

You Tube

[UltraFan]

Originally Posted by 750XL

No, you don't want any de-icing fluid to stay on your airframe at all.

Anti-icing fluid, however, you do want to stay on your wings (until it sheers off near rotation speed)

You may be right. I always called the liquid that washes the snow off the plane "glycol" and the orange stuff they pour on the wings anti.... OOOOH! That's where I got "lost in translation". Anti-icing fluid!!! I see my mistake now. Thank you!

[Maninthebar]

Much well informed speculation as ever but the questions seem to me to be around what was DIFFERENT about this flight. From what we (appear to) know:
Flight crew were experienced
Conditions not unusual for this airfield
Airframe a regular in this environment
Well-used airfield (ground crews experienced)

What made the difference for THIS take-off?

[UltraFan]

Originally Posted by jugofpropwash

This is probably another dumb idea, and I'm sure you can all tell me why it wouldn't work - but what about keeping the skin of the aircraft warm enough that ice wouldn't form? Would the issue be excess weight/fuel consumption for a heating system, or are there other issues I'm not thinking of?

I don't think such a system is too difficult to design. Certifying and operating it would be a whole different story. Fuel consumption shouldn't be too different. They already have a heating system on leading edges, prop blades and other surfaces prone to icing. Heating the entire fuselage or even just the entire wing presents a "logistical" problem. How do you direct exhaust heat or electrical wires to do that. The entire wing would be a "no-step" area. And it adds huge complexity to an already complicated electrical systems of modern aircraft. Plus adds another hundred or thousand points of failure. And since the wings are full of fuel vapors it has to be absolutely protected against shorts and sparking.

Another problem I see is how much is "warm enough". Landing in Northern Siberia in December with 10% humidity at -65C is one thing, landing in Oslo in February with 100% humidity at -7C is another. Also, icing doesn't only occur in cold climates. Land at some tropical place, and your wings will frost up from cold fuel inside the wings. And the system would have to calculate all that and make sure it doesn't overheat the airplane while effectively de-icing it. And you shouldn't underestimate the consequences of overheating since most modern planes are made, at least to some extent, of composites held together with various "glues"... or sometimes with actual glue.

[UltraFan]

Originally Posted by Maninthebar

Much well informed speculation as ever but the questions seem to me to be around what was DIFFERENT about this flight. From what we (appear to) know:
Flight crew were experienced
Conditions not unusual for this airfield
Airframe a regular in this environment
Well-used airfield (ground crews experienced)

What made the difference for THIS take-off?

That's the question that usually takes a team of experts armed with labs and supercomputers months or sometimes years to answer.

[bud leon]

Originally Posted by MichaelKPIT

No. we did not: https://youtu.be/5GIU94dg1ek

You know this kind of tacit nationalism is unjustified when you have pilots in the US flying aircraft into the ground.
Human error knows no boundaries.

[andrasz]

Originally Posted by bud leon

Human error knows no boundaries.

There is a fine line between making an error of judgement and a willful disregard of basic safety rules. Like it or not, some cultures (and I would by no means single out one, can think of several...) are more prone for the latter. Luckily you happen to live in a region where by and large such rules are respected and adhered to.

As for the accident flight, what was different... ? A good analogy may be south/south east Asia, where runway excursions provide a perfect record of the arrival of the monsoon season. Change of seasons are always a risky period, requiring more attention and discipline.

[pilotmike]

Originally Posted by hans brinker

https://www.wingsmagazine.com/infrar...ts-money-1325/

Interesting idea. From the article:

The JFK system is located adjacent to Hangar 12, the former TWA aircraft maintenance facility – a 12-minute taxi ride away from the winter departure runway 4L/22R.

“The Port Authority requires that during major storms, every plane must have a departure slot before it is allowed to come out for deicing. The Port Authority and the control tower liason so planes should then be able to go directly to the runway for takeoff,” says Sharkey. Louis adds, “You have a clear shot to the end of the runway after you deice.”

“We are looking for an average complete throughput time of under 15 minutes for a B-747.

So to achieve departures at 2 minute intervals would require at least 7 of these systems in parallel close to each departure threshold. Where would these fit at most international airports? A quick look at Google Earth doesn't show much spare space available at most airports. Certainly it would be un-economic use of real estate in the UK where de-icing might only be required for a few tens of days per year. Where would 14 or 16 of these be located at Heathrow and at Gatwick?

In comparison, a fleet of de-icing rigs are far cheaper to buy, are mobile to get to wherever planes are parked to work in parallel, and can be parked in a very small space during the warmer months taking almost no space.

Don't get me wrong - the proposed buildings appear a good idea at first glance, however there will be some big hurdles to overcome purely because of their size, and the number required for effective operation.

[Icare320]

Dryden accident 10.3.1989

This accident looks like the F-28 in Dryden airport Canada March 10, 1989.

[Nomad2]

To be fair to the Kazakhs, and I have a fair bit of experience working with them, they are very much rule followers, as opposed to rule-disregarders or ignorers.
I don't know for sure what happened with the Fokker, but two things are sure.

1. Pilots who work there know a lot about ice, iceing, deiceing etc. It's meat and drink to a Kazakh pilot.
2. Fokker pilots surely know about its reputation when carrying ice- any ice.

I think this'll turn out to maybe be undetected clear ice, or some unfortunate combination of circumstances- perhaps including a weight and balance issue, rather than recklessness.

Kazakh pilots are very wary by nature.

[HighSpeedAluminum]

Originally Posted by Retired DC9 driver

So I talked to station manager, and said we "will need Type IV deicing wing and tail".
Apparently he had "found " enough Type IV to deice after all. So I told the Station Manager, I wanted to see him , standing in front of the aircraft , as it was deiced to ensure, (not trusting contract deice crew) that both wings and tail were properly de-iced with type IV fluid.

Small correction but jets “Deice” with Type 1 and “Anti-ice” with Type IV.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviati...rframe-208.htm

[Retired DC9 driver]

Originally Posted by HighSpeedAluminum

Small correction but jets “Deice” with Type 1 and “Anti-ice” with Type IV.

https://www.tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviati...rframe-208.htm

Ok well, they would de-ice with Type 3 first, then spray on the Type IV which acts as a coating, to dilute any further (in this case) light freezing rain. At about 100 knots, during takeoff, the Type IV fluid shears off the wings and other surfaces, before rotation.
As for the debate about de-icing aircraft quickly enough, for it to remain effective; ie maximum "holdover time" in precip, sometimes the safest plan is to finish the de-icing with an overspray of Type IV. Like this picture, I posted previously. "Green is good". In light freezing rain, after de-icing, and an overspray of Type IV, you have a holdover time of 45 minutes , on my old charts.

[JanetFlight]

Originally Posted by Nomad2

To be fair to the Kazakhs, and I have a fair bit of experience working with them, they are very much rule followers, as opposed to rule-disregarders or ignorers.
Kazakh pilots are very wary by nature.

Indeed...they managed to land an E-jet right out of the mx in Portugal with totally reversed ctrls and in IMC conditions without injuring anyone on the ground.

[guadaMB]

The matter of icing (and de-icing) wouldn't be a matter if the INDUSTRY would take it seriously.
At the times being, there ARE paints and coatings enough durable to make almost all ACs "NON-ICEABLE".
There are paints to AVOID graffiti's stick to walls, but OWNERS do not want to spend in those paintings.
There ARE coatings that AVOID 100% a possible surface icing of ANYTHING. Mainly sub-products of SILICONES.

IF those coatings/paints were used, it would be 100% recommendable the "russian de-icing method" shown in a previous post video

[lomapaseo]

Originally Posted by guadaMB

The matter of icing (and de-icing) wouldn't be a matter if the INDUSTRY would take it seriously.
At the times being, there ARE paints and coatings enough durable to make almost all ACs "NON-ICEABLE".
There are paints to AVOID graffiti's stick to walls, but OWNERS do not want to spend in those paintings.
There ARE coatings that AVOID 100% a possible surface icing of ANYTHING. Mainly sub-products of SILICONES.

IF those coatings/paints were used, it would be 100% recommendable the "russian de-icing method" shown in a previous post video

All true, except for the durable part (in a slip stream) and ice accretion on blunt surfaces that builds on itself like a spider web

It's only a matter of time before somebody suggest a solar panel array large enough to cover the whole airport

[Rwy in Sight]

Originally Posted by lomapaseo

All true, except for the durable part (in a slip stream) and ice accretion on blunt surfaces that builds on itself like a spider web

It's only a matter of time before somebody suggest a solar panel array large enough to cover the whole airport

And install a spring system below than array.

[MichaelKPIT]

Originally Posted by bud leon

You know this kind of tacit nationalism is unjustified when you have pilots in the US flying aircraft into the ground.
Human error knows no boundaries.

This was in no way intended to be nationalistic. (And for full disclosure, although I live in Pittsburgh I am not American - I was born and raised in the UK, lived there for the first 35 years of my life and still carry a British passport.)

My point is this: we all understand the dangers of a contaminated wing. It was even quoted several posts back specifically how little contamination is needed to reduce a wing’s performance significantly. The dangers of icing are drummed into pilots ad nauseum yet here we have a flight literally taking off with snow on the wing! Even if we go out on a limb and assume it was a ferry flight, with no fare paying passengers, that still gives a minimum of three people on board. Two pilots and the person with the iPhone, filming it. The two pilots must have known it was dangerous; the cameraman would surely have been thinking “well this is a little unusual” because he was sitting there filming it! I’m sure take off performance was impaired, just not to the point where planet and aircraft remained inextricably bound, but it sets a precedent for “yes I should de-ice, but hey, the guy on the YouTube video got away with it - maybe I will too!”

The question was “have we not learned from Air Florida?” I stand vehemently behind my response: No - we haven’t.

[Eric Janson]

The danger of freezing fog cannot be understated. Freezing fog contains super cooled water particles that will freeze instantly when disturbed by a rapidly moving surface.

I have had propeller blades collect 1/2cm of clear ice just on a short taxi in freezing fog.

The same is possible on the fan and compressor section of a jet engine.

[cappt]

Originally Posted by Eric Janson

The danger of freezing fog cannot be understated. Freezing fog contains super cooled water particles that will freeze instantly when disturbed by a rapidly moving surface.

I have had propeller blades collect 1/2cm of clear ice just on a short taxi in freezing fog.

The same is possible on the fan and compressor section of a jet engine.

The same can happen with supercooled water drops and dew laying on top the wing. Run your hand across it and it’s water, a minute later it’s turned to ice because you disturbed it. Any precipitation at or near freezing requires the utmost caution.