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Plane crashes near Kazakhstan airport

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Plane crashes near Kazakhstan airport

Old 27th Dec 2019, 18:28
  #41 (permalink)  
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Tail hit runway twice during takeoff. BBC news 18:00

Rotating, only to find it didn't want to become airborne?

Lots of concrete, so go a bit faster and try again.
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 19:12
  #42 (permalink)  
 
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When I read about double tail strikes during takeoff I first thought loading problem but then went on to read that passengers exiting over the wings slid on the ice and thought OMG what an airline.
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 19:24
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The pax interviewed by the BBC said that after exiting the RH overawing exit 'The wing was very slippy, it was icy'
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 19:26
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Obviously no idea as to causation at this moment in time but reading about the potential of frost on wings very similar to Turkish Airlines Fokker F28 (TK345) January 1975 crashed just after rotation at Izmir airport.
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 19:44
  #45 (permalink)  
 
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Did my TR in 2000 with an ex Fokker instructor. As a previous post said, was very sternly warned to NEVER attempt take off with ANY contamination, and, a tactile inspection was highly recommended, in some companies it was actually mandatory.
I lost count of how many times I got it wrong visually, to be corrected by touch.

This accident to his ex Fokker colleague was the reason for the warning, along with extensive windtunnel work done by Fokker subsequent to the loss of the factory pilot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palair...nes_Flight_301

Repeated , with only one unfortunate truck driver lost, several years later in France.


Report: Regional F100 at Pau Pyrenees on Jan 25th 2007, crashed on take off due to contaminated wings
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 19:55
  #46 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cough View Post
The pax interviewed by the BBC said that after exiting the RH overawing exit 'The wing was very slippy, it was icy'
Assumption by Pax.

Anti-ice fluid feels very slippery as well; it's the way it coats the wing.

I know a lot of people are jumping on the icing thing - and it could well play out that way.
Just wanted to set it straight that if you have ice on the wing or anti-ice fluid, it can feel the same (slipperiness) to the unknowledgeable.
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 21:13
  #47 (permalink)  
 
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Apologies for possibly a stupid SLF question: whose call is it on whether to apply anti-ice fluid and what particular type? I know that ultimately the captain is responsible for everything, but if the ground crew declare it "fine", then what?
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 21:26
  #48 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Loose rivets View Post
Tail hit runway twice during takeoff. BBC news 18:00

Rotating, only to find it didn't want to become airborne?

Lots of concrete, so go a bit faster and try again.
Shades of early Comets...
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 21:26
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Originally Posted by SteppenHerring View Post
Apologies for possibly a stupid SLF question: whose call is it on whether to apply anti-ice fluid and what particular type? I know that ultimately the captain is responsible for everything, but if the ground crew declare it "fine", then what?
Always the Captains call, though personally more often than not through experience I've seen the Captain ask the ground crews opinion and took their word for it rather than their own (generally, what else has been deiced, when, who, what aircraft, etc).

I'd be surprised if anything departed in -12c without deicing.
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 21:51
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Maybe this is a stupid idea, but in places like this where ice is a known issue, and as an addition to anti-ice procedures, would it help to have a climate controlled environment to store aircraft in the last hour or so before flight? I am thinking about something like a hangar with low humidity, increased temperature, instruments to detect ice, and obviously protection from precipitation.

Aircraft would be towed into and out of the building, and they would leave ready to fly, to minimize the time they spent exposed on the ground.
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 22:00
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Yes good try but it's a stupid idea. As a starter for 10; most aircraft are on 1hr or less turnarounds so all planes at an airport would need to be inside...
Did I get there first?
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 22:02
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Originally Posted by segfault View Post
Maybe this is a stupid idea, but in places like this where ice is a known issue, and as an addition to anti-ice procedures, would it help to have a climate controlled environment to store aircraft in the last hour or so before flight? I am thinking about something like a hangar with low humidity, increased temperature, instruments to detect ice, and obviously protection from precipitation.

Aircraft would be towed into and out of the building, and they would leave ready to fly, to minimize the time they spent exposed on the ground.
Right on the first count; it's a totally stupid idea.

Commercial aviation doesn't work like that, on so many levels you cannot begin to imagine.


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Old 27th Dec 2019, 22:11
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I remember seeing a blanket of snow - that had fallen during taxi and waiting our turn at ORD - sliding off the wing in the early takeoff run thanks to the anti-ice fluid application and adherence to holdover time

I doubt that much, if any, anti-ice fluid would still be adhering by V1, provided that all the ice had been removed.

However, all bets are off if an insufficient amount was applied.

Last edited by RatherBeFlying; 27th Dec 2019 at 23:40.
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 22:24
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Originally Posted by 750XL View Post
Always the Captains call, though personally more often than not through experience I've seen the Captain ask the ground crews opinion and took their word for it rather than their own (generally, what else has been deiced, when, who, what aircraft, etc).

I'd be surprised if anything departed in -12c without deicing.
Captain's call always! As a Captain, if I see (or even think) there is ice, rime ice, frost or any contamination on the wing it gets de,-iced. No, the Captain doesn't "take their word for it". The de-icing or anti-icing mixture (usually both) is entered in the tech log; type, application temp, time, etc is carefully recorded. If the hold-over time is exceeded, then it gets re-applied.
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Old 27th Dec 2019, 22:30
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Originally Posted by RatherBeFlying View Post
I remember seeing a blanket of snow - that that had fallen during taxi and waiting our turn at ORD - sliding off the wing in the early takeoff run thanks to the anti-ice fluid application and adherence to holdover time

I doubt that much, if any, anti-ice fluid would still be adhering by V1, provided that all the ice had been removed.

However, all bets are off if an insufficient amount was applied.
Anti ice fluids prevent ice and snow from forming on the wings, not act as a slippery substance that make the snow slide off the wing. In your case the HOT had expired.
I have flown for hours after deicing and i still had fluid dripping from the wings after landing.
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Old 28th Dec 2019, 00:43
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On the HOTs, -12C in freezing fog can give HOTs as low as 20-25 minutes with certain SAE Type II or IV fluids (per this winter season's FAA guidance).
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Old 28th Dec 2019, 01:46
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Kudos where kudos due. From a BBC interview with the survivor: "Then we started helping people who had been hurt. It was dark. We were lighting with cell phone lights. Helping out each other. All the guys trying to take out people. Because there was high risk of fire".

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-50922219
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Old 28th Dec 2019, 08:18
  #58 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by UltraFan View Post
Kudos where kudos due. From a BBC interview with the survivor: "Then we started helping people who had been hurt. It was dark. We were lighting with cell phone lights. Helping out each other. All the guys trying to take out people. Because there was high risk of fire".
There have been blood drives as well, overcrowding at hospitals with people offering help.

Perhaps Almaty is a unique place in that the airport is practically the only game in town to get out of the area (not including a 48+ hour train ride), so anyone of any means has traveled out of there from the same half dozen airlines many times, on the same types of flights in the dark, ice, and fog. The population is also only 1.7 million isolated people so with 100 people you start playing six degrees of Kevin Bacon and get a lot of people in the same area affected more than we might think is typical. It's also the first day of Christmas break for schoolchildren so a lot of people are themselves traveling (remember Christmas is Jan 7 there).
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Old 28th Dec 2019, 08:26
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Originally Posted by segfault View Post
Maybe this is a stupid idea, but in places like this where ice is a known issue, and as an addition to anti-ice procedures, would it help to have a climate controlled environment to store aircraft in the last hour or so before flight? I am thinking about something like a hangar with low humidity, increased temperature, instruments to detect ice, and obviously protection from precipitation.

Aircraft would be towed into and out of the building, and they would leave ready to fly, to minimize the time they spent exposed on the ground.
Used to work in a large commercial freezer warehouse (nowadays downgraded to just chilled goods) and it's not a great idea to take cold soaked machinery into heat and then back into the cold even if the humidity in the warm area is low. The moment you go from cold to hot every surface starts collecting moisture to the point that it ends up dripping wet. Now take that bit of machinery back into sub zero temps before all that moisture has totally gone and it's near instant ice on every surface.
Even for something as small as a forklift it could sometimes mean several hours after leaving the cold section for a battery change before we could bring it back in again or things would just freeze solid!
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Old 28th Dec 2019, 09:10
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Originally Posted by segfault View Post
Maybe this is a stupid idea, but in places like this where ice is a known issue, and as an addition to anti-ice procedures, would it help to have a climate controlled environment to store aircraft in the last hour or so before flight? I am thinking about something like a hangar with low humidity, increased temperature, instruments to detect ice, and obviously protection from precipitation.

Aircraft would be towed into and out of the building, and they would leave ready to fly, to minimize the time they spent exposed on the ground.
Simple answer: No. It wouldn't work.

Rationale:
Humans are good at inventing systems and procedures which can be put in place to prevent known problems. Call it SOPs if you will. The de-icing / anti-icing procedure is a fine example: it works just fine when rigorously, conscientiously and consistently applied. And it isn't overly expensive in the grand scheme of things.

Humans are also very good at circumventing / flouting / ignoring systems and procedures to suit themselves whenever they believe it will save them time, bother or cost. And often it bites them and others in the a$$ - very hard, very painful and usually at very considerable cost. That might have happened here.

So your suggestion is to invent a very expensive, massively cumbersome, highly inconvenient, almost impossibly difficult to implement system to cater for the few cases where someone chooses not to comply with a simple, relatively cheap, highly effective, known good procedure...

Could you suggest one good reason why anybody who refuses to comply with the simple, effective, cheap, known good (de-icing) procedure will comply with a hugely cumbersome and expensive replacement procedure which only becomes necessary after they fail to comply with a simple de-icing procedure?

Hence my earlier simple answer - NO!
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