Safety is everyone's responsibility - de-icing
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The Air Florida accident was caused by more than just wing contamination (definitely not fluffy white snow). They had EPR probe contamination as well resulting in a heavily reduced thrust takeoff. They had almost no experience or training in operating in icing conditions. Dry snow contamination is an allowed contaminant in Cnada at least. Have to verify that there is nothing underneath. FAA did allow frost accumulation on the top of the 737 wing for a very short period of time. Not sure if that was a paperwork mistake, however it was rescinded fairly quickly.
How are people supposed to feel they can report freely if the next thing they know their "confidential" report is plastered all over the tabloids with the usual total nonsense spoken about it.
OH
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the fact that CHiRP exists should give confidence to pax - They don't need to and should not be given access to the reports.
How are people supposed to feel they can report freely if the next thing they know their "confidential" report is plastered all over the tabloids with the usual total nonsense spoken about it.
How are people supposed to feel they can report freely if the next thing they know their "confidential" report is plastered all over the tabloids with the usual total nonsense spoken about it.
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The Air Florida accident was caused by more than just wing contamination (definitely not fluffy white snow). They had EPR probe contamination as well resulting in a heavily reduced thrust takeoff. They had almost no experience or training in operating in icing conditions. Dry snow contamination is an allowed contaminant in Cnada at least. Have to verify that there is nothing underneath. FAA did allow frost accumulation on the top of the 737 wing for a very short period of time. Not sure if that was a paperwork mistake, however it was rescinded fairly quickly.
Another part of the Air Florida accident was that they taxied close to the aircraft in front of them hoping to “deice” with warm exhaust. It just made water that was allowed to freeze on the wing. Obviously making things much worse.
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Recently at JFK
About end of november we left JFK while it was snowing.
We taxied to the Deicing ramp, shut down and got deiced. In orange, type 1.
I had asked for antiicing also, and they started spraying the green type 4. Right wing got done, on the left one they only sprayed the flaps. The deicer guys left and did their shift change.
The ramp agent came back on the headset and reported the deicing process as finished. We only noted it was incomplete, because we have a taxicamera mounted on our A346.
I had them comeback and finish the job, told the deicer on the freq that this might have ended in the termination of 300+ lives and that I would report this.
If you are at JFK - beware!
The oposite is true for BOS - professional, polite, all up to international standard.
We taxied to the Deicing ramp, shut down and got deiced. In orange, type 1.
I had asked for antiicing also, and they started spraying the green type 4. Right wing got done, on the left one they only sprayed the flaps. The deicer guys left and did their shift change.
The ramp agent came back on the headset and reported the deicing process as finished. We only noted it was incomplete, because we have a taxicamera mounted on our A346.
I had them comeback and finish the job, told the deicer on the freq that this might have ended in the termination of 300+ lives and that I would report this.
If you are at JFK - beware!
The oposite is true for BOS - professional, polite, all up to international standard.
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There was a well publicized case years ago where an IB A340 crew taxiing out at KBOS was cautioned by several other crews about the snow on their wings, but blithely decided to brush off the warnings rather than the snow. Nothing bad happened.
First, if they can’t see the reports and results how can they know that they can have confidence? Second, it’s confidential. No-one outside CHIRP or involved in the event is identified - CHIRP is very good at de-identification. So what does it matter to reporter? Third, what happened to all the good work about transparency, encouraging reporting and just culture stuff that has developed over the last 25 years or so - has it passed you by completely?
I simply don't see how allowing the gutter press to publish it out of context with their sensationalist nonsense in order to sell newspapers either contributes to "transparency" and understanding by the travelling public or encourages people to report? But then what do i know - you've clearly got a much better understanding of this than me.
OH
Clean wing policy means just that. In EASAland and FAAland AFAIK this policy is designed to take away any judgement call. NO ICE of any kind is allowed.
When the 737NG first appeared on the line there was this theory doing the rounds that frost between the red lines on the wings was allowed. No NAA had agreed to a change in the clean wing policy, but trying to convince some (mostly pilots) of this became a daily winter ritual.
I was even accused of being in cahoots with the de-icing company by one 'captain'.
Unless you are paying for it, you have no reason not to de-ice. End!
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This is the sort of comment that concerns me.
Clean wing policy means just that. In EASAland and FAAland AFAIK this policy is designed to take away any judgement call. NO ICE of any kind is allowed.
When the 737NG first appeared on the line there was this theory doing the rounds that frost between the red lines on the wings was allowed. No NAA had agreed to a change in the clean wing policy, but trying to convince some (mostly pilots) of this became a daily winter ritual.
I was even accused of being in cahoots with the de-icing company by one 'captain'.
Unless you are paying for it, you have no reason not to de-ice. End!
Clean wing policy means just that. In EASAland and FAAland AFAIK this policy is designed to take away any judgement call. NO ICE of any kind is allowed.
When the 737NG first appeared on the line there was this theory doing the rounds that frost between the red lines on the wings was allowed. No NAA had agreed to a change in the clean wing policy, but trying to convince some (mostly pilots) of this became a daily winter ritual.
I was even accused of being in cahoots with the de-icing company by one 'captain'.
Unless you are paying for it, you have no reason not to de-ice. End!
This sort of comment concerns me as well.
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What you want to see on both wings before takeoff. Green Type 4, which gives you the longest holdover time. At least in the A-319, I could ask the F/O to look back and check if the right wing was "Green" as you could see the wings out the cockpit windows. Deicing bay in Montreal.
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I once noticed a Jetstream 32 taxiing past the hardstand area I was waiting at. Noticed the kickstand still attached. Even though they were about 100m away, I waved my arms over my head and tried to make a dangling motion with my arm.
Must've worked, because they turned around and headed back to their hardstand area.
I also saw a gable marker get blown off the grass and onto a taixway once, in front of a 737. Did the same arm waving thing and they stopped the aircraft as well. The wind then blew he marker off the runway and I called airport ops to come collect it.
Doesn't take much to be aware of what's happening around you, but I'd rather say something and be told "we know" than watch damage or a smoking hole happen.
Must've worked, because they turned around and headed back to their hardstand area.
I also saw a gable marker get blown off the grass and onto a taixway once, in front of a 737. Did the same arm waving thing and they stopped the aircraft as well. The wind then blew he marker off the runway and I called airport ops to come collect it.
Doesn't take much to be aware of what's happening around you, but I'd rather say something and be told "we know" than watch damage or a smoking hole happen.
Cabin crew saved a couple of friends out of Moscow . Station Engineer replaced by local to save money . A/C deiced , thumbs up , taxied out ...
C/C to cockpit '' Should both wings be de-iced ? Or only one ? '' .
Taxy back , etc . Remedial action ... Station eng. posted back next day .
We were in the sin bin in Madrid [ UK 732 ]... Iberia A320 taxied past , lined up , We were squarking '' You've ice on your wings '' ...
They just departed ..... I've not trusted them since .
condor .
C/C to cockpit '' Should both wings be de-iced ? Or only one ? '' .
Taxy back , etc . Remedial action ... Station eng. posted back next day .
We were in the sin bin in Madrid [ UK 732 ]... Iberia A320 taxied past , lined up , We were squarking '' You've ice on your wings '' ...
They just departed ..... I've not trusted them since .
condor .
