Orange2fly A320 Alpha floor on approach to Muscat
Congratulations! Although I’ll let you into a secret... Airbus ‘policy’ is to use maximum automation. Obviously we should all be familiar with manual thrust and capable of employing it whenever desired or required. But as a blanket policy, forcing pilots to pretend that auto thrust is only to be used in the case of an automatic landing is short-sighted. Where does your company draw the line? I assume it’s FACs off passing 100ft? It’s like this manual thrust policy is designed to simply let pilots think (assume) they’re better than the competition because they’re ‘going old school’. I’m not sure how it serves the advancement of safety. You should be comfortable flying the aircraft IAW the manufacturers design.
er? flown one much?
There are 2 ways to disconnect A/T on the 320 series. One (and don't try this at home..) is to push the A/T pushbutton on the FCP. The other is to use the 'Instinctive Disconnect' switches on the TL*
Moving the T/Ls to the Idle detent doe NOT disconnect auto thrust.
The thrust lever position is an auothrust limit only.
As in this case, Autothrust was indeed available and commanded TOGA even though the PF had apparently disconnected it by one of the above means. Alpha Floor is a function of Autothrust.....
*OK, manually going to TOGA does disconnect A/T but it's armed. semantics :-)
There are 2 ways to disconnect A/T on the 320 series. One (and don't try this at home..) is to push the A/T pushbutton on the FCP. The other is to use the 'Instinctive Disconnect' switches on the TL*
Moving the T/Ls to the Idle detent doe NOT disconnect auto thrust.
The thrust lever position is an auothrust limit only.
As in this case, Autothrust was indeed available and commanded TOGA even though the PF had apparently disconnected it by one of the above means. Alpha Floor is a function of Autothrust.....
*OK, manually going to TOGA does disconnect A/T but it's armed. semantics :-)
Also, although the preferred (by AB) method is to push the ID buttons, if you use the FCP button, the thrust will be locked, and if you push the ID button the thrust will go to max CLB, so depending on the situation, the FCP button will be much less of a "don't try this at home" moment.
Last edited by hans brinker; 26th Nov 2019 at 04:10.
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er? flown one much?
There are 2 ways to disconnect A/T on the 320 series. One (and don't try this at home..) is to push the A/T pushbutton on the FCP. The other is to use the 'Instinctive Disconnect' switches on the TL*
Moving the T/Ls to the Idle detent doe NOT disconnect auto thrust.
The thrust lever position is an auothrust limit only.
As in this case, Autothrust was indeed available and commanded TOGA even though the PF had apparently disconnected it by one of the above means. Alpha Floor is a function of Autothrust.....
*OK, manually going to TOGA does disconnect A/T but it's armed. semantics :-)
There are 2 ways to disconnect A/T on the 320 series. One (and don't try this at home..) is to push the A/T pushbutton on the FCP. The other is to use the 'Instinctive Disconnect' switches on the TL*
Moving the T/Ls to the Idle detent doe NOT disconnect auto thrust.
The thrust lever position is an auothrust limit only.
As in this case, Autothrust was indeed available and commanded TOGA even though the PF had apparently disconnected it by one of the above means. Alpha Floor is a function of Autothrust.....
*OK, manually going to TOGA does disconnect A/T but it's armed. semantics :-)
"The A/THR can be disconnected in two ways:
- Standard disconnection:
- The flight crew pushes the instinctive disconnect pb on the thrust levers,
- The flight crew sets both thrust levers to IDLE detent.
- The flight crew pushes the A/THR pb on the FCU while A/THR is active/armed, or
- The system loses one of the arming conditions"
By the way, Alpha floor is available after disconnection via the instinctive pbs as well, except if the system is deactivated via a 15 second hold on the instinctive disconnect pb.
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Closing the thrust levers DOES disconnect the Autothrust.
Disconnecting the Autothrust with the FCU PB will cause the Autothrust to disco but thrust is locked in the setting it was in, until the thrust lever disco buttons are pressed or Autothrust is re-engaged.
Alphafloor is available even if Autothrust is not engaged. It isn’t available f Autothrust has been perm de-activated (>15s on the TLs buttons) or if Autothrust has failed.
Disconnecting the Autothrust with the FCU PB will cause the Autothrust to disco but thrust is locked in the setting it was in, until the thrust lever disco buttons are pressed or Autothrust is re-engaged.
Alphafloor is available even if Autothrust is not engaged. It isn’t available f Autothrust has been perm de-activated (>15s on the TLs buttons) or if Autothrust has failed.
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Congratulations! Although I’ll let you into a secret... Airbus ‘policy’ is to use maximum automation. Obviously we should all be familiar with manual thrust and capable of employing it whenever desired or required. But as a blanket policy, forcing pilots to pretend that auto thrust is only to be used in the case of an automatic landing is short-sighted. Where does your company draw the line? I assume it’s FACs off passing 100ft? It’s like this manual thrust policy is designed to simply let pilots think (assume) they’re better than the competition because they’re ‘going old school’. I’m not sure how it serves the advancement of safety. You should be comfortable flying the aircraft IAW the manufacturers design.
Using maximum automation all day every day is a recipe for disaster. You agree that we should be familiar with manual thrust, so as to be able to employ it if and when required. Where’s your line in the sand? Under what conditions would you consider it ok to use manual thrust?
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Obviously we should all be familiar with manual thrust and capable of employing it whenever desired or required. But as a blanket policy, forcing pilots to pretend that auto thrust is only to be used in the case of an automatic landing is short-sighted. Where does your company draw the line? I assume it’s FACs off passing 100ft?
I think I just don't comment on your last sentence .
Thrust lever to idle is my standard way of disconnecting A/T on approach. I wait for A/T to command idle then bring the thrust levers back to idle (it saves matching the donuts then pressing the disconnects). A/T disconnects and FMA for A/T is blank. Do the A320s you fly have some kind of mod? What does your FCOM say?
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Congratulations! Although I’ll let you into a secret... Airbus ‘policy’ is to use maximum automation. Obviously we should all be familiar with manual thrust and capable of employing it whenever desired or required. But as a blanket policy, forcing pilots to pretend that auto thrust is only to be used in the case of an automatic landing is short-sighted. Where does your company draw the line? I assume it’s FACs off passing 100ft? It’s like this manual thrust policy is designed to simply let pilots think (assume) they’re better than the competition because they’re ‘going old school’. I’m not sure how it serves the advancement of safety. You should be comfortable flying the aircraft IAW the manufacturers design.
Manual flight= manual thrust. And this IS approved and even encouraged by Airbus.
Airbus does NOT have “ use of maximum automatisation “ as policy. On the contrary mon cher.
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Missed opportunity
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AerocatS2A if you're addressing me... that's my point... you use the disconnect buttons to. disconnect the AT... its not a requirement to disconnect the AT to land, and it will remain engaged if you dont..... -with the TLA at idle around the Retard Calls....
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DSC-22_30-90-B-00011961.0001001
well I stand corrected; but this is inconsistent with other parts of the FCOM.. surely once disconnected it needs to be ‘reconnected’ why do they say disconnected, not armed.. because it will arm once TOGA is selected...?
well I stand corrected; but this is inconsistent with other parts of the FCOM.. surely once disconnected it needs to be ‘reconnected’ why do they say disconnected, not armed.. because it will arm once TOGA is selected...?
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‐ On ground
• By pushing the A/THR pb on the FCU when the engines are not running, or
• By setting the thrust levers at the FLX or TOGA detent when the engines are running.
‐ In flight
• By pushing the A/THR pb on the FCU while the thrust levers are out of the active range, or
• While A/THR is active (“A/THR” white on the FMA), by setting all thrust levers beyond the CL detent or at least one lever above the MCT detent, or
• By engaging the go around mode"
DSC-22_30-90-00011958.0001001 - ATHR arming conditions...
So even if being ATHR OFF, when you go TOGA for the go around, it will arm itself again...and actiavte when reducing to LVR CLB...
Otherwise imagine a balked landing go around, where you'd also have to think about arming ATHR afterwards? Nah
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Had they disabled the autothrust, Alpha floor would not have been available. Makes sense?
Om the topic of using the FCU push button to disconnect, I haven’t read anything to suggest there’s anything inherently dangerous in doing that. You’ll just get THR LOCKED. I understand why they’d consider it non standard.
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Because the speed holding ability of the bus is quite lacking in certain phases of flight. Being comfortable with disconnecting both or either the AP and ATHR can save a lot of headaches with flap over speeds etc.
ive personally seen it both go trending way below green dot, and also well into overspeed territory had myself, or the officer not intervened.
I.e. Airbus golden rule No 4
ive personally seen it both go trending way below green dot, and also well into overspeed territory had myself, or the officer not intervened.
I.e. Airbus golden rule No 4
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Same going into Las Vegas from the East, for the 19L/19R Visuals, or Slam Dunk into KSFO, from the North, ... "have you got the San Mateo bridge? cleared Quiet Bridge Visual..At that point, you better dive down, Autopilot Off, Flight Directors Off, Speed Push in the right turn.. Forget the Flight Directors "OFF" and you could be in a world of hurt..
Maybe you forgot to Activate Approach first, once..then when you go "Speed Push", the engines roar up to give you 250 knots..
Last edited by Retired DC9 driver; 26th Nov 2019 at 22:25.
I would regularly, hand fly the 319/320/321 with A/T Active. Never saw the Speed Mode go wonky. Say Expressway Visual into KLGA, , at Peths go , "Auto Pilot Off", "Flight Directors Off" , "Speed Push", then Gear Down , Landing check. Hand fly, along the Long Island expressway, in Speed Mode. Pick up the VASI rolling out on final...
Same going into Las Vegas from the East, for the 19L/19R Visuals, or Slam Dunk into KSFO, from the North, ... "have you got the San Mateo bridge? cleared Quiet Bridge Visual..At that point, you better dive down, Autopilot Off, Speed Push in the right turn..
Maybe you forgot to Activate Approach once..then when you go "Speed Push", the engines roar up to 250 knots..
Same going into Las Vegas from the East, for the 19L/19R Visuals, or Slam Dunk into KSFO, from the North, ... "have you got the San Mateo bridge? cleared Quiet Bridge Visual..At that point, you better dive down, Autopilot Off, Speed Push in the right turn..
Maybe you forgot to Activate Approach once..then when you go "Speed Push", the engines roar up to 250 knots..
Personally, I would be of the opinion that if you don't fly these approaches with manual thrust, even on perhaps more challenging days, albeit with everything working normally, how can you count on yourself to fly them manually on the days where things may not be working perfectly and you're forced to do them manually for the first time?
Any sensible company policy should recognise this and thus encourage maximum appropriate use of manual thrust on all approach types, not just ILS to ILS, so that if they have to be done in anger due to systems failure/downgrade it's second nature to the pilots flying them, and doesn't eat up any additional capacity, as it's ingrained in the muscle memory not something that requires any extra thought, like riding a bike.
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Auto Thrust on in speed mode. Autopilot off. Less workload, in the busy New York environment. Though I would fly with both Auto Thrust/ Auto Pilot off, sometimes.. I found, after the DC-9 where thrust was ALWAYS manual, the Airbus, thrust levers were quite sensitive, and I didn't have all the power settings "memorized" for different flaps settings, configurations, unlike the DC-9.
I flew the B-767,- 200 and 300 (FADEC) much more with BOTH Autopilot and Autothrust off.
I flew the B-767,- 200 and 300 (FADEC) much more with BOTH Autopilot and Autothrust off.