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ERJ 145 off piste at O Hare

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ERJ 145 off piste at O Hare

Old 11th Nov 2019, 18:55
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Does the ERJ have rudder blanking when too much reverse is used, like the MD-80’s do? Looks similar to the MD 80 going off of the runway in LGA with a crosswind last winter.
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Old 11th Nov 2019, 19:01
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Originally Posted by OldnGrounded
In the pax video, that runway looks very slick. It will be interesting to learn what preceding pilots had to say about braking effectiveness.
Tower gave Envoy 4125 braking action medium to poor. Wind was 360 at 17 knots gusts to 24 in the tower landing clearance. If they were really going for P4 it is away from the terminal to the right and the plane left the runway to the left. Perhaps they weathervaned into the north wind as the plane slowed down on the slick runway.
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Old 11th Nov 2019, 19:25
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In the video you can see the plane departing the runway to the left prior to the 8 thousand feet remaining and P4 taxiway signs. Were they trying to exit N1 perhaps?
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Old 11th Nov 2019, 19:27
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If they were really going for P4 it is away from the terminal to the right
If I'm reading above chart correctly, P4 extends to the left of 10L too. If that is so, then they were indeed making a left turn into P4. Looks quite a tightish turn in slippery conditions. Might have been better to continue to N3.

Edit: In fact that left turn is N1. Missed that somehow.
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Old 11th Nov 2019, 19:33
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Originally Posted by BRUpax
If I'm reading above chart correctly, P4 extends to the left of 10L too.
It's a case of 'find the faces in the picture' but I think the pavement on the other side of the runway from P4 is N1. N2, N3, N4 and N5 are also on the north side of 10L.

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Old 11th Nov 2019, 20:23
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Agreed Airbubba and I did make an edit pointing out that I'd failed to see it. (Poor observation skills)
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Old 11th Nov 2019, 21:36
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Originally Posted by ivor toolbox
Erm, no, and it didn't go off the end of Bristol runway, rather the side, it was the second 'off' we had during that day, an ATR did same earlier, root cause was shoddy runway resurfacing. Its all in the relevant AAIB report.
Thanks Ivor, the circumstances I know, they didn't groove the runway I believe. The point was the spoilers retract when the wheels lock up I seem to recall. Never flown them myself.
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Old 11th Nov 2019, 21:39
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I've watched the video over and over and got the impression they were way too fast to even consider a turn off to the nearest taxi way.
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Old 11th Nov 2019, 21:49
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Thrust reversers

An optional extra on the 145
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Old 12th Nov 2019, 00:28
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Feathers McGraw
Anyone else think that the flaps looked to be nearer to a takeoff setting than a landing one? I will state that I'm not familiar with the 145 flap settings available.
Envoy has the numbers to land flap 22, thats the typical landing config. Pretty sure the numbers stacked up where they could land flaps 22 on that runway if they wanted to, but on runway conditions like that.

I dont know why you wouldnt bring it in flaps 45 just to reduce the vref and plant it, not a requirement but probably makes more sense.

Flap setting probably wasnt the cause, couldve simply have been bad technique, centerline discipline, bad braking and rudder control, who knows. Honestly its probably just as simple as they hit a bad patch.

The crew was led to believe that the runway was 5/5/5 and braking action med. So well within allowable limits for that aircraft, sounds like a dud report of prevailing conditions.

Last edited by havick; 12th Nov 2019 at 03:02.
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Old 12th Nov 2019, 00:29
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Originally Posted by 1208
An optional extra on the 145
Envoy E-140/145s definitely have thrust reversers, unless they were MELd of course.
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Old 12th Nov 2019, 00:44
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Originally Posted by havick


Envoy E-140/145s definitely have thrust reversers, unless they were MELd of course.
I think (not certain) the TRs can be heard on the pax video.
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Old 12th Nov 2019, 04:01
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Perhaps a bit of downwind thrust vector pushing the tail out

Last edited by FIRESYSOK; 12th Nov 2019 at 04:12.
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Old 12th Nov 2019, 05:56
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My impression from the video is that the aircraft acquired a slight left drift after touchdown, followed by a drift right almost to the right runway edge, followed by the left ground-loop (a bit hard to be sure with snow-covered markings and bare strips). Appears to have collapsed at least the right main gear in the final sideways skid (judder-judder-judder-Bam!), causing the wing drop.

See pictures at AH: Accident: Envoy E145 at Chicago on Nov 11th 2019, runway excursion on landing

A tough day at the office - looking forward to more details. Shades of Continental 1404 in Denver (2009) - localized wind gust(s) outside the detected range?

I do not think this was an attempt to make an exit.
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Old 12th Nov 2019, 06:48
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To be honest, it looks like a complete loss of control on ice. A good crosswind for sure. I see in the weather reports that the temp was -4 but you can see with the multiple reports that it is dropping fairly quickly even though it was morning where the temp might be steady or increasing soon.

This has the hallmarks of a cold front coming through a few hours earlier and what the local papers around here call a flash freeze. The temperature was a few degrees above freezing with a wet runway, perhaps some drizzle. Then the cold front hits with strong winds and snow which initially melts, then starts to freeze creating ice. Snow continues as we can see and it looks like snow over pavement but it is ice or ice patches below. Reminds me of the AC 767 that lost control in Halifax last winter.

Monitor the weather and beware of flash freezes. Looks like a situation where a diversion would be a good idea. Or let someone land in front of you and get a pirep. Early morning arrival after an overnight cold front passage.
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Old 12th Nov 2019, 08:03
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From a controllers point of view.... oups.... runway closed for some time.

With the number of operations, and adding in winter conditions, this is what happens sometimes, and the reason safety zones are established.

On another note, I've been doing run ups on the runway, which is normally an absolutely nono... simply because the conditions on the taxiways and aprons didn't allow for it.... aircraft would start skidding when adding power. I've even seen slow taxiing aircraft being swung around in gusty conditions (the conversation was rather fun afterwards).
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Old 12th Nov 2019, 09:01
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I wonder why they elected the runway with the most cross wind component, during slippery runway conditions, when the airport has plenty of other options? Is it only runway 10/28 that offers landing aids for low ceiling/visibility?
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Old 12th Nov 2019, 10:53
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Originally Posted by F-16GUY
I wonder why they elected the runway with the most cross wind component, during slippery runway conditions, when the airport has plenty of other options? Is it only runway 10/28 that offers landing aids for low ceiling/visibility?
With the ongoing construction, ORD only has one runway (4R/22L) that is not east/west and it is only a little over 8000 feet long.
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Old 12th Nov 2019, 12:21
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Wind 360/17g24 on rwy 10 with braking action Med-poor? Is that really true? Because for that there would be only one word: cowboys!

On my type it would be way out of limits (limit for med would be 20 cross).
Anyone the croswindlimits for that type?
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Old 12th Nov 2019, 12:59
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The crosswind component was well over the limit for my company on any aircraft with a reported runway condition of medium to poor.
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