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BA Whistleblower Reveals Tankering of Fuel - BBC

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Old 16th Nov 2019, 16:25
  #181 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by 172_driver


You're not shifting 62000 tonnes of payload for the price of 72 tonnes of fuel. Maybe 62 tonnes. And that's pretty poor bang for the buck compared to shipping (unless time is cruicial)

Edit: If you actually meant 62 tonnes there was no need for decimals..
Do you know how many trees you have to plant to offset just your cruise?
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Old 16th Nov 2019, 22:23
  #182 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Fire and brimstone
Do you know how many trees you have to plant to offset just your cruise?
Interesting question. So a bit of research in the forestry tables suggests that one 20 year old pine tree has a carbon content of 1 tonne +/- 10%. That’s the equivalent of 1.8 tonnes of CO2. So to offset my year of 737 flying I have to plant 5,600 trees and wait 20 years. But first I have to plant another quarter million trees to offset just my previous flying. Well, that’s my Sunday gone...

On edit: Using the available metrics, the air transport industry would need to plant out one million acres every year.
In one state of Australia alone more than that has burned in bushfires and we are only a third of the way through fire season.




Last edited by Australopithecus; 16th Nov 2019 at 22:59.
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Old 16th Nov 2019, 23:15
  #183 (permalink)  
 
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1 tonne of carbon is surely not equivalent to 1.8 tonnes CO2.

Molar weight of carbon = 12 g. Molar weight of CO2 = (12 + 2 * 16) g = 44g.

This implies 1 tonne carbon is equivalent to 4.4 tonnes CO2.
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Old 16th Nov 2019, 23:32
  #184 (permalink)  
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Pipelines to LHR. I had meant to reply earlier, as well as the Southern pipeline, there is a feed from the North. The fuel storage and distribution at Buncefield, Hemel Hempstead feeds direct. This gives the airport diversity of supply. Needed when Buncefield went off line for an extended period following an explosion in December 2005.
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Old 17th Nov 2019, 06:18
  #185 (permalink)  
 
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Later today I will be flying an international football team back from a match they're playing in Southern Africa to their home city in West Africa (a flight time of approx 9 hours in each direction) and thereafter ferrying the aircraft back to base in Northern Europe (a flight time of 6 hours, devoid of passengers, in each direction)... therein a grand total of 30 hours of flying (requiring only +63 tons of fuel... it's a VIP config 737 with only 56 seats - ergo it's rather light and therein 'frugal' ) all in order for them to be able to play a 90 minute football match. Next week I'll be ferrying down to southern Spain to collect a premier league team and fly them to Russia for them to play a match, thereafter take them back to Spain and then ferry back to base. Oh how I laugh when I go into a UK supermarket and am required to spend 5p to obtain a plastic bag.
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Old 17th Nov 2019, 06:56
  #186 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by marchino61
1 tonne of carbon is surely not equivalent to 1.8 tonnes CO2.

Molar weight of carbon = 12 g. Molar weight of CO2 = (12 + 2 * 16) g = 44g.

This implies 1 tonne carbon is equivalent to 4.4 tonnes CO2.
Why would you measure a gas in a mass unit? One mole of mass @STP is 22.4L.

You've made two conversions to make one.

Plus not entirely sure what the obsession with weight of "carbon" is, surely it's the volume of CO2 that is the issue. I've never even weighed dry ice.

Only reason to work out a molar mass to volume is to work out partial pressure.
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Old 17th Nov 2019, 08:54
  #187 (permalink)  
 
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The customary units for carbon emissions is tons of CO2. In talking about passenger aircraft for comparison purposes, it might make sense to compare carbon emissions per passenger mile. In this case I think a modern aircraft at full load compares favorably to a passenger car with 1 or two passengers. A bus full of people will do significantly better, but a bus with three passengers does worse. For Electrified rail, the efficiency is higher again, but the calculation now has to talk about the efficiency of the fossil fuel component of the generating mix applying in the country of travel.
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Old 17th Nov 2019, 10:14
  #188 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Australopithecus


Interesting question. So a bit of research in the forestry tables suggests that one 20 year old pine tree has a carbon content of 1 tonne +/- 10%. That’s the equivalent of 1.8 tonnes of CO2. So to offset my year of 737 flying I have to plant 5,600 trees and wait 20 years. But first I have to plant another quarter million trees to offset just my previous flying. Well, that’s my Sunday gone...

On edit: Using the available metrics, the air transport industry would need to plant out one million acres every year.
In one state of Australia alone more than that has burned in bushfires and we are only a third of the way through fire season.





Unfortunately there won't be room to plant this many trees, in the UK, anyway, as we have to leave room for millions upon millions of new affordable homes (all built on the flood plains, as trees would get washed away).

If anything, we will need to cut down more trees to make the space, and provide building materials.

OR, we could just build them, and offset our huge carbon footprint by planting replacement trees in Scandinavia, to replace the ones imported by ship to feed our building program.

Naturally, all this will be done in a sustainable way.

"Simples".
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Old 17th Nov 2019, 13:10
  #189 (permalink)  
 
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Pilots, you're not scientists. Please stop pretending that you are - stick to what you're expert on and leave the real scientists to do their job.
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Old 17th Nov 2019, 15:13
  #190 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jimmievegas
Pilots, you're not scientists. Please stop pretending that you are - stick to what you're expert on and leave the real scientists to do their job.
Good luck with getting the internet to work like that - The forums would be a pretty quiet place if people who were non-experts were not allowed to contribute to debates...imagine how quiet Pprune would be if only real pilots were allowed to post...

BTW what's a "real scientist"???
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Old 17th Nov 2019, 16:00
  #191 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Old King Coal
Oh how I laugh when I go into a UK supermarket and am required to spend 5p to obtain a plastic bag.
Why? Adding 5p to the supermarket bill has got bugger all to do with offsetting CO2 in the atmosphere.

It is an attempt to reduce plastic pollution. It has been remarkably successful. We are a stingy bunch over here.
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Old 17th Nov 2019, 18:11
  #192 (permalink)  
 
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There is a new rail service for fuel from Isle of Grain to Colnbrook agreed between BA & BP, but they are also moving the railhead and fuel connection at Colnbrook.
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Old 17th Nov 2019, 20:29
  #193 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jimmievegas
Pilots, you're not scientists. Please stop pretending that you are - stick to what you're expert on and leave the real scientists to do their job.
Why, when even the scientists can't agree?
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Old 17th Nov 2019, 20:58
  #194 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jimmievegas
Pilots, you're not scientists. Please stop pretending that you are - stick to what you're expert on and leave the real scientists to do their job.
Indeed, we are not scientists. But Critical thinking is what we do on a daily basis and what we are (or should be) expert on.
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Old 18th Nov 2019, 01:24
  #195 (permalink)  
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Chris2303
Why, when even the scientists can't agree
Please clarify which scientists you refer to and what they do not agree about. The range of options is very wide.
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Old 18th Nov 2019, 04:20
  #196 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by jimmievegas
Pilots, you're not scientists. Please stop pretending that you are - stick to what you're expert on and leave the real scientists to do their job.
I am a scientist, and fail to see what volume has to do with the mass of a gas. I stand by my calculation that 1 tonne carbon equals 4.4 tonnes CO2 until someone proves me wrong.
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Old 18th Nov 2019, 04:22
  #197 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Ex Cargo Clown
Why would you measure a gas in a mass unit? One mole of mass @STP is 22.4L.

You've made two conversions to make one.

Plus not entirely sure what the obsession with weight of "carbon" is, surely it's the volume of CO2 that is the issue. I've never even weighed dry ice.

Only reason to work out a molar mass to volume is to work out partial pressure.
I made no conversions. All my calculations are in mass., Yours, on the other hand, make no sense.
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Old 18th Nov 2019, 04:48
  #198 (permalink)  
 
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It depends who I google, but in Australia they talk about CO2 equivalents, and I see that they use a conversion of 1:3.67.

In this dry country 15 trees are required to offset one tonne. (!) the planting density means around 100-300 tonnes per hectare at year 30. Not real good
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Old 18th Nov 2019, 10:36
  #199 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by TURIN
Why? Adding 5p to the supermarket bill has got bugger all to do with offsetting CO2 in the atmosphere.

It is an attempt to reduce plastic pollution. It has been remarkably successful. We are a stingy bunch over here.
Not that many years ago, we all shifted from paper bags to plastic to save the trees! Ah, the law of unintended consequences...
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Old 18th Nov 2019, 11:51
  #200 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by marchino61
1 tonne of carbon is surely not equivalent to 1.8 tonnes CO2.

Molar weight of carbon = 12 g. Molar weight of CO2 = (12 + 2 * 16) g = 44g.

This implies 1 tonne carbon is equivalent to 4.4 tonnes CO2.
Or 3.67...
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