Just enough fuel?
Regarding Fuel, Concorde and Brian Walpole I realise that my remix of the famous PPrune Concorde thread omitted Brian Walpole due to a typo. I have fixed that and there is a small page about him accessible from the index page here: https://paulross.github.io/pprune-co...ocs/index.html
Interestingly in the original PPrune thread there is an account of F-BTSD in February 2003 that made an emergency landing at Halifax with just taxy fuel: http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/42398...ml#post6025418
Interestingly in the original PPrune thread there is an account of F-BTSD in February 2003 that made an emergency landing at Halifax with just taxy fuel: http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/42398...ml#post6025418
Sometime in the mid 1970s a PanAM 747 spent way too much time holding to get into JFK. He then diverted to EWR. Due to the complex traffic system in the New York area this 15 nm distance was extended to over 100 miles. Approaching EWR from the SW to land to the SW an engine flamed out. When the second engine flamed out they decided to land downwind to the NE and were cleared to do so. On approach the third engine flamed out. The fourth engine continued to run until he cleared the runway at the end, then flamed out.
When I taxied out shortly afterwards the plane still had not been towed in and it was truly an overwhelming sight.
When I taxied out shortly afterwards the plane still had not been towed in and it was truly an overwhelming sight.
This and a number of essentially similar incidents over a relatively short time span resulted in Boeing publishing "Minimum fuel for approach" numbers for every type and variant.
It also resulted in ICAO introducing "fixed final reserve" into SARPs -- the minimum fuel in tanks on landing, enough to ensure all engines were still running ---- and a concept too many AU pilots dispute to this day.
Tootle pip!!
It strikes me that pilots are being placed into an increasingly difficult situation - land with excess and get a warning from management (esp. Ryanair) or land with less than mins and you get hit with a safety violation.
Doesn’t seem to leave much wriggle room for holds/delays/weather diverts etc. I would prefer that these management practices are not revealed in memos after a crash caused by fuel starvation....
Doesn’t seem to leave much wriggle room for holds/delays/weather diverts etc. I would prefer that these management practices are not revealed in memos after a crash caused by fuel starvation....
Annoys me intensely that the same executives who demand minimum fuel - “to save money” - still pay themselves eye-watering, and frankly obscene amounts.
How come there is apparently enough money to pay executive salaries but not to put a sensible amount of fuel in their aircraft?
How come there is apparently enough money to pay executive salaries but not to put a sensible amount of fuel in their aircraft?
I do hope you and your mate CW247 are only flying MS Flight Sim.
"Not use the gauges" ---- really, truely?
Please give me a hint, so I can avoid ever having to travel pax on your outfit.
A little more knowledge on how aircraft flowmeters and contents gauges have been certified in the last 40 or so years might also help.
To borrow from a military maxim: "The plan of battle rarely survives the first encounter with the enemy".
Funnily enough, flight plans are quite widely used, not just by airlines.
Tootle pip!!
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,674
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It strikes me that pilots are being placed into an increasingly difficult situation - land with excess and get a warning from management (esp. Ryanair) or land with less than mins and you get hit with a safety violation.
Doesn’t seem to leave much wriggle room for holds/delays/weather diverts etc. I would prefer that these management practices are not revealed in memos after a crash caused by fuel starvation....
Doesn’t seem to leave much wriggle room for holds/delays/weather diverts etc. I would prefer that these management practices are not revealed in memos after a crash caused by fuel starvation....
The pilot in command carries strict liability. Practically this means there is only one person responsible.
Company manuals, Company made plots of fuel carried versus peer pilots and the like seek to push an agenda.
Heck, an Australian carrier "encourages" all pilots to review on the company "app" fuel ordering.
The First Officer up for a promotion can be "managed" that way too.
At the end of the day, Pilot in Command means just that.
Statute empowers the PIC to do the right thing, not the commercially expedient.
There always is wiggle room.
The pilot in command carries strict liability. Practically this means there is only one person responsible.
Company manuals, Company made plots of fuel carried versus peer pilots and the like seek to push an agenda.
Heck, an Australian carrier "encourages" all pilots to review on the company "app" fuel ordering.
The First Officer up for a promotion can be "managed" that way too.
At the end of the day, Pilot in Command means just that.
Statute empowers the PIC to do the right thing, not the commercially expedient.
The pilot in command carries strict liability. Practically this means there is only one person responsible.
Company manuals, Company made plots of fuel carried versus peer pilots and the like seek to push an agenda.
Heck, an Australian carrier "encourages" all pilots to review on the company "app" fuel ordering.
The First Officer up for a promotion can be "managed" that way too.
At the end of the day, Pilot in Command means just that.
Statute empowers the PIC to do the right thing, not the commercially expedient.
That's it, in a nutshell!!
Tootle pip!!
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 0
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mate of mine kept doing "the right thing" but was placed under immense pressure for not towing the company line which was, for example, to fly the N Atlantic in a big twin with 5% of the last hour's fuel burn for contingency (honestly, because it was an ERA operation and the rules permitted it (!) ). In some cowboy outfits, keep doing the "right thing" as a professional Commander and you could be walking the streets. As a true pro, he walked, joined a proper outfit & never looked back.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Geneva, Switzerland
Age: 69
Posts: 37
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK, this and a hundred other things I've heard about Ryanair. Can anyone explain why they haven't had a Major Disaster? Divine Suspension of the Law of Gravity?
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Right hand seat of a 777
Posts: 168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Funnily enough, I was watching Ice Pilots NWT a few weeks ago, and they were delivering water bombers to South Korea.
When it came to refuelling the aircraft in Korea, Justin Simle asked the Koreans why they’d only brought 10 drums of gas, and the response was ‘the journey only needs 10 drums’ he was livid!
OMAA
When it came to refuelling the aircraft in Korea, Justin Simle asked the Koreans why they’d only brought 10 drums of gas, and the response was ‘the journey only needs 10 drums’ he was livid!
OMAA
