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Thomas Cook Gone

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Thomas Cook Gone

Old 27th Sep 2019, 11:19
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Originally Posted by Mike Flynn

Which in laymans terms means they have an inbuilt insurance to this risk?
Yes, Albeit they may not be fully covered, but the majority will be.
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Old 27th Sep 2019, 11:23
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That surprises me, but if you are familiar with the specifics, and this is true, the lessors are heavily exposed.
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Old 27th Sep 2019, 12:54
  #143 (permalink)  
 
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TC Germany files

Originally Posted by beardy
Perhaps it is worth re-reading the post you quote from and considering how many and which elements of the company kept operating and how they became cash healthy.
Condor gets the state cash injection but Thomas Cook Germany files for bancruptcy.
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Old 27th Sep 2019, 12:54
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Jet 2 are not only operator being accused of 'cashing in' with silly prices. Probably a relatively short term issue where there's a rush of bookings far higher than normal movement at this time of year and the algorithm responds by upping the price.
Yep, agree. I hate these stupid replies to supply and demand issues.. From the Daily mail ok but not from people in the industry. You should know how it works and yes if the demand doubles you will be toast pricewise..
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Old 27th Sep 2019, 13:43
  #145 (permalink)  
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RoyHudd :
Profits from late 2018 onwards from the German and ~Scandinavian affiliates were never repatriated to TCG. Their books were kept artificially positive as part of the plan to hive off these "companies" on the open market. They ended up cash-rich.
well it looks like it is not that simple after all :
Yesterday Condor received a guarantee from the German government and the Hessian State Government for six-month bridge loan in the amount of 380 million EUR. This is also subject to approval by the European Commission, at which point the loan can be disbursed.
This was done in order to prevent liquidity issues at Condor, resulting from the insolvency of their parent company. [...] Condor as such was profitable, but that doesn’t mean they had the liquidity necessary to operate
source : https://onemileatatime.com/condor-airlines-future/
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Old 27th Sep 2019, 14:57
  #146 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by beardy
Perhaps it is worth re-reading the post you quote from and considering how many and which elements of the company kept operating and how they became cash healthy.
I have, and it seemed to indicate the mothership (TCUK) did not wish to repatriate the funds in order to make TCNE and TCDE look good for prospective buyers. That TCUK saddled itself up with a mountain of debt when they bought the German and Nordic travel agencies, and subsequently 'fudged' the books to make them look attractive, is hardly something you can blame either the Nordic or German entities for.

Seems to me, that senior management at TCUK got themselves into a position they couldn't handle, saddled the company with debt it couldn't repay, and then went bankrupt. But, sure, blame someone else if that makes you feel better. I, on the other hand, am only happy that our fellow airline employees in Germany and Denmark are still able to go to work and collect a pay check, whilst of course feeling immensely sad for the innocent staff at TCUK, who lost their jobs because management was not up to the task of running the company.
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Old 27th Sep 2019, 18:06
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Originally Posted by SMT Member
I have, and it seemed to indicate the mothership (TCUK) did not wish to repatriate the funds in order to make TCNE and TCDE look good for prospective buyers. That TCUK saddled itself up with a mountain of debt when they bought the German and Nordic travel agencies, and subsequently 'fudged' the books to make them look attractive, is hardly something you can blame either the Nordic or German entities for.

Seems to me, that senior management at TCUK got themselves into a position they couldn't handle, saddled the company with debt it couldn't repay, and then went bankrupt. But, sure, blame someone else if that makes you feel better. I, on the other hand, am only happy that our fellow airline employees in Germany and Denmark are still able to go to work and collect a pay check, whilst of course feeling immensely sad for the innocent staff at TCUK, who lost their jobs because management was not up to the task of running the company.
See, you answered your own question. Well done 👍
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Old 27th Sep 2019, 18:12
  #148 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by SMT Member
I have, and it seemed to indicate the mothership (TCUK) did not wish to repatriate the funds in order to make TCNE and TCDE look good for prospective buyers. That TCUK saddled itself up with a mountain of debt when they bought the German and Nordic travel agencies, and subsequently 'fudged' the books to make them look attractive, is hardly something you can blame either the Nordic or German entities for.

Seems to me, that senior management at TCUK got themselves into a position they couldn't handle, saddled the company with debt it couldn't repay, and then went bankrupt. But, sure, blame someone else if that makes you feel better. I, on the other hand, am only happy that our fellow airline employees in Germany and Denmark are still able to go to work and collect a pay check, whilst of course feeling immensely sad for the innocent staff at TCUK, who lost their jobs because management was not up to the task of running the company.
Condor is a separate company. GmbH... it’s not that their profits are supposed to be sent to TCUK because they are the parent company. I suppose the benefit TCUK had was they owned the stock from Condor and that has value. They are separate companies.... even if one is a subsidiary. Am I understanding this correctly?
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Old 28th Sep 2019, 06:49
  #149 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by beardy
See, you answered your own question. Well done 👍
Indeed, but I still don't understand why an utterly incompetent management at TCUK is the fault of TCDE and TCNE, let alone why that would quality them to have acted "disgracefully".

TCUK decided to have TCDE and TCNE as separate legal entities (actually, several legal entities) incorporated in Germany, Sweden and Finland. Each of those entities have a legal obligation to look after their own house first and foremost, although it's plainly obvious they would have been acting under the orders from TCUK. But when the smelly bits are fast approaching the fan, those legally responsible for those entities have a responsibility towards those first and foremost. If TCUK had wanted it another way, they should have organised themselves differently.

Fact is, the management of TCUK was incapable of running a travel agency, in stark contrast to management of the TCDE and TCNE affiliates. That's why the house came tumbling down, and the decision by TCUK management not to repatriate funds in order to prop of those entities for a possible sale, is yet another example thereof. I'm not going to say they acted criminally, but they sure as shyte were not up to the task of running the company they were entrusted with - to the detriment of their hard working and loyal employees.
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Old 28th Sep 2019, 08:02
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Originally Posted by SMT Member
Indeed, but I still don't understand why an utterly incompetent management at TCUK is the fault of TCDE and TCNE, let alone why that would quality them to have acted "disgracefully".

TCUK decided to have TCDE and TCNE as separate legal entities (actually, several legal entities) incorporated in Germany, Sweden and Finland. Each of those entities have a legal obligation to look after their own house first and foremost, although it's plainly obvious they would have been acting under the orders from TCUK. But when the smelly bits are fast approaching the fan, those legally responsible for those entities have a responsibility towards those first and foremost. If TCUK had wanted it another way, they should have organised themselves differently.

Fact is, the management of TCUK was incapable of running a travel agency, in stark contrast to management of the TCDE and TCNE affiliates. That's why the house came tumbling down, and the decision by TCUK management not to repatriate funds in order to prop of those entities for a possible sale, is yet another example thereof. I'm not going to say they acted criminally, but they sure as shyte were not up to the task of running the company they were entrusted with - to the detriment of their hard working and loyal employees.
I think, but am not sure, that the original comment was not about the continental companies. I think that he was referring to the individuals who were continental who badly managed TCUK and have feathered the own nests.
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Old 28th Sep 2019, 08:32
  #151 (permalink)  
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TCUK did not decide what happened or otherwise with TCDE or any other part of the group. Fankhauser Debuss and co were all in Group roles and made those decisions for the group.
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Old 28th Sep 2019, 08:55
  #152 (permalink)  
 
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There is Condor and then there is TC Germany. The former (airline) is being supported - the latter (travel agency) starting bankruptcy proceedings.
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Old 28th Sep 2019, 12:54
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Originally Posted by SMT Member
. Each of those entities have a legal obligation to look after their own house first and foremost, although it's plainly obvious they would have been acting under the orders from TCUK..
the other companies would lose their corporate status if they took orders from TCUK. As a result, corporate protection would be lost and creditors could go after their assets as a result.

Last edited by cessnaxpilot; 28th Sep 2019 at 16:14.
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Old 28th Sep 2019, 14:22
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One more simple answer to the question why TCUK was grounded while Condor and Scandinavia was continued is the passenger base.
TCUK had 80% TCUK passengers -> as long TC is not kept alive, there is no sense to keep an airline alive only having 20% loadfactor remaining, without having any strcutures to sell the other 80% somehow in due time.
TC Scandinavia had initially the same problem, they had 100% passengers from their nordic tour operators. But since the tour operators are continued, the airline is flying also, because it the still has its passenergs.
Condor is similar, it only has 20% TC passengers and 80% single seat and other non-TC tour operators bookings, which makes much more sense to keep them flying. If Condor is able to compensate the missing 20% TC passengers in future, they are able to survive.

regards
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Old 29th Sep 2019, 11:28
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Originally Posted by Austro767
If Condor is able to compensate the missing 20% TC passengers in future, they are able to survive.

regards
I hope so for them but they need a buyer to keep them afloat and I don't see anyone coming in.

LH would only be interested in the name and the slots and I see no other suitable suitor ...
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Old 29th Sep 2019, 20:42
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Originally Posted by foxcharliep2
I hope so for them but they need a buyer to keep them afloat and I don't see anyone coming in.

LH would only be interested in the name and the slots and I see no other suitable suitor ...



Most of the " cheapies" cruising the European skies belong to the " People Mover " category. Condor is still a airline, and is run like a airline.
I took this photo a year ago. A beautiful piece of equipment still, but also one of the problems - the Condor fleet is over aged. A buyer would
have to buy new aircraft. However, I´ll be flying on Condor in a few days, and hope it will be on this old bird.
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Old 30th Sep 2019, 06:12
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I think the fleet is not the major problem, most of the fleet is leased, they need to lease new(er) aircrafts - the cost of fleet swap is the major cost. But, you have to find a new investor putting money into a existing strategy, refund bailout, beeing at least 51% European and maintaining a good relationship to LH. A long range base in Frankfurt is only possible with a good relationship to LH, independant if LH is part of a future solution for Condor or not. They may have a chance, but its a difficult way to go.
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Old 30th Sep 2019, 06:56
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Originally Posted by BEA 71

A beautiful piece of equipment still, but also one of the problems - the Condor fleet is over aged. A buyer would
have to buy new aircraft..
Exactly - another problem and not attractive for LH or any other buyer.
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Old 30th Sep 2019, 07:22
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Originally Posted by foxcharliep2
Exactly - another problem and not attractive for LH or any other buyer.
Since when do you have to BUY aircraft. More aircraft are leased than not. The brand and its reputation is worth something irrespective of fleet ownership
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Old 30th Sep 2019, 08:29
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Unfortunately the fundamentals are bad for Condor - they’ll not be on life support for long. Their business doesn’t have the right stuff to warrant a risky approach to merger or otherwise.

Their FFM slots are not like those at LHR for example
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