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Smoking next to an aircraft being refuelled.

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Smoking next to an aircraft being refuelled.

Old 21st Sep 2019, 14:20
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Summary

Very little risk by smoking near an airplane fueling

except if there happens to be a wind to vaporize the fuel so be sure and hold a balloon with you while boarding to check for a wind
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 14:52
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Since this thread has gone well off topic, allow me to continue....I would be interested in any comments on this...

I was among the passengers bussed out to a KQ E190 at Addis Ababa recently. On arrival at the aircraft, boarding was done with passengers being allowed onto the a/c in groups of max 5 people "because the a/c was being refuelled".

I have never encountered that before, what is the logic? Is that a KQ thing? An Addis airport thing? An ICAO thing ?
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 15:47
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Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem
Fire during fueling

All it takes is a heat source and a fuel spray. The latter is unusual, but I have had fuel spraying out of the fuel vents a few times.
The rules are there for a reason.
Surely not ?
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 16:01
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Lomapaseo,

Taking your remark as somewhat T.I.C., this forum does have a habit of being becoming a de facto reference source. No smoking/Naked lights airside is a pretty universal sanction, certainly in Western Europe and the U.S., for good reason - mitigating risk is why aviation is as safe as it is.
Cannot commend the decisive action taken by the captain enough
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 16:19
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Originally Posted by Momoe
Lomapaseo,

Taking your remark as somewhat T.I.C., this forum does have a habit of being becoming a de facto reference source. No smoking/Naked lights airside is a pretty universal sanction, certainly in Western Europe and the U.S., for good reason - mitigating risk is why aviation is as safe as it is.
Cannot commend the decisive action taken by the captain enough
Fair enough, it's just that I haven't seen many becalmed days while boarding at airports
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Old 21st Sep 2019, 20:58
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Originally Posted by double_barrel
Since this thread has gone well off topic, allow me to continue....I would be interested in any comments on this...

I was among the passengers bussed out to a KQ E190 at Addis Ababa recently. On arrival at the aircraft, boarding was done with passengers being allowed onto the a/c in groups of max 5 people "because the a/c was being refuelled".

I have never encountered that before, what is the logic? Is that a KQ thing? An Addis airport thing? An ICAO thing ?
Since nobody has answered this I'll venture a guess that, since it was airstair and not jetway loading, they didn't want a big line of people at the airplane waiting to slowly get in the door while they are fueling.
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Old 22nd Sep 2019, 10:24
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From a chemistry point of view, yes you could extinguish a naked flame with kerosene, it's got a pretty low vapour pressure and a reasonably high flashpoint.

I wouldn't recommend it though especially if it is atomized.
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Old 22nd Sep 2019, 11:18
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Point is, fuel in liquid form won't burn. Only the vapour burns.
A full fuel tank contains little vapour, but an empty fuel tank is full of it.
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Old 22nd Sep 2019, 14:15
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Originally Posted by ShyTorque
Point is, fuel in liquid form won't burn. Only the vapour burns.
A full fuel tank contains little vapour, but an empty fuel tank is full of it.
But all you need is some vapour

You then need to take into account the probability of an ignition source and the probability of sloshing to fill a larger closed area
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Old 22nd Sep 2019, 17:50
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An empty tank is full of vapour. When you fill the tank this displaces the vapour which overflows, (heavier than air), falls to the ground to make a puddle of vapour. This could very well be an ignition hazard especially on a calm day.
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Old 22nd Sep 2019, 20:03
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Vapour does not burn, just check the video posted earlier.
Fuel needs to be atomized to catch fire. A fuel spray will do that. As happened in the BA fire during fueling.
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Old 22nd Sep 2019, 20:11
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Originally Posted by drichard
There are times my fellow travellers leave me speechless...

https://metro.co.uk/2019/09/20/idiot...lled-10778001/
A couple of observations.

(1) The old Paddy Ashdown joke. He was in a meeting in his HQ in Bosnia, which was next door to a petrol station. His staff were getting all worked up about this being a dangerous location - what if the baddies were to blow up the petrol station?

"Have any of you lot actually tried to blow up a petrol station?" asked Paddy.

"No", they said.

"Well," said Paddy, "I have, and it's bloody difficult."

(2) Marquess of Bristol. Smoking whilst refuelling his chopper at Cambridge. Then took off straight from the pumps, none of this taxying to where ATC told him to or any of that nonsense.

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Old 22nd Sep 2019, 20:51
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Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem
Vapour does not burn, just check the video posted earlier.
Fuel needs to be atomized to catch fire. A fuel spray will do that. As happened in the BA fire during fueling.
Very wrong! By that logic it would be safe to weld a drained petrol tank where there is no atomised fuel spray.
Obviously, to burn, any form of any fuel also needs oxygen mixed with it....if that's what you're getting at?

P.S. do NOT try welding a petrol tank at home, or anywhere else.

Btw, years ago I saw a fire begin in an almost full motorbike petrol tank. Once the (thankfully small) volume of fuel/air vapour above the liquid fuel in the tank instantly burned with a "pop" the fire blew itself out. Thankfully, the person nearest put the fuel cap back on again.
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Old 22nd Sep 2019, 22:09
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Originally Posted by ShyTorque
Very wrong! By that logic it would be safe to weld a drained petrol tank where there is no atomised fuel spray.
Obviously, to burn, any form of any fuel also needs oxygen mixed with it....if that's what you're getting at?

P.S. do NOT try welding a petrol tank at home, or anywhere else.

Btw, years ago I saw a fire begin in an almost full motorbike petrol tank. Once the (thankfully small) volume of fuel/air vapour above the liquid fuel in the tank instantly burned with a "pop" the fire blew itself out. Thankfully, the person nearest put the fuel cap back on again.
I thought this discussion was about jet fuel?
Petrol will catch fire very easily. Jet fuel not.
Again, see the video postet earlier.
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Old 22nd Sep 2019, 22:40
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Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem


I thought this discussion was about jet fuel?
Petrol will catch fire very easily. Jet fuel not.
Again, see the video postet earlier.
The video posted is a YouTube video that contains many technical errors and the guy clearly does not fully understand what he is talking about (plus anyone who stands over a jar full of petrol and throws a match into it is clearly lacking in brain cells!). The fact is that vapour most definitely does burn! the term "flammable liquid" is technically a misnomer as it not the liquid that burns but the vapour that it gives off when combined in the right proportions with oxygen in the atmosphere. All flammable liquids have a property known as the flash point which is the temperature above which it will give off sufficient vapour for it to ignite if a source of ignition is present. In the case of volatile fuels such as avgas or mogas that temperature is around -45 deg C so they give off flammable vapour at all normal temperatures. JetA1 has a flash point of at least 38 deg C so needs to be heated above that temperature before it will give off sufficient vapour to ignite.
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Old 22nd Sep 2019, 23:06
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Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem
I thought this discussion was about jet fuel?
Petrol will catch fire very easily. Jet fuel not.


It's worth noting that rules don't normally take into account the type of aircraft or fuel. Sure, smoking while fueling with Jet A or similar is very different than while fueling with aviation gas/petrol. But most airports do both and don't want to be bothered with different sets of rules for different aircraft or fuels.
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Old 23rd Sep 2019, 00:11
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Originally Posted by ManaAdaSystem

I thought this discussion was about jet fuel?
Petrol will catch fire very easily. Jet fuel not.
Again, see the video postet earlier.
The point you’re not understanding or missing, is that any vapour, from any liquid fuel will burn. Some liquid fuels need a higher temperature than others to vaporise, but once in vapour form, they will burn. The same is true about many solids, even metals.
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Old 23rd Sep 2019, 01:12
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Originally Posted by PJD1
............ JetA1 has a flash point of at least 38 deg C so needs to be heated above that temperature before it will give off sufficient vapour to ignite.
......... and gasoline has a flash point around -40 deg C. Yes, that's MINUS 40.

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Old 23rd Sep 2019, 01:19
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Originally Posted by WingNut60
......... and gasoline has a flash point around -40 deg C. Yes, that's MINUS 40.
Hmm - Do you mean -40deg C or deg F ?
Both the same at -40

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Old 23rd Sep 2019, 01:43
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Darwin would have something to say on the matter.
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