Ezy cancel flights due to crew shortage
Join Date: Aug 2002
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Flanker,
The hiring of (sometimes dubious) F/Os as captains may well have been a short lived and misguided policy but the fact remains that many got in. In fact, I suspect many are still there – where else could they go ?. Indeed some are probably now in positions of authority. It is worrying enough that they are in charge of a commercial jet aircraft let alone in a position where they are tasked with the selection, training and promotion of others.
I have nothing against EJ as such. However, just like many others in the mainstream industry, I find the recent chest puffing posturing of some people in the Low Cost sector tedious, arrogant and short sighted. In a recent interview, the boss of Ryanair admitted that any serious accident in the Low Cost sector could well bring the whole thing crashing down. What would happen if such an accident could be partly or wholly attributable to the recruitment policies of the likes of easyJet. And lets face it – we all know that one of the LCA’s is going to have a crash sooner or later.
The hiring of (sometimes dubious) F/Os as captains may well have been a short lived and misguided policy but the fact remains that many got in. In fact, I suspect many are still there – where else could they go ?. Indeed some are probably now in positions of authority. It is worrying enough that they are in charge of a commercial jet aircraft let alone in a position where they are tasked with the selection, training and promotion of others.
I have nothing against EJ as such. However, just like many others in the mainstream industry, I find the recent chest puffing posturing of some people in the Low Cost sector tedious, arrogant and short sighted. In a recent interview, the boss of Ryanair admitted that any serious accident in the Low Cost sector could well bring the whole thing crashing down. What would happen if such an accident could be partly or wholly attributable to the recruitment policies of the likes of easyJet. And lets face it – we all know that one of the LCA’s is going to have a crash sooner or later.
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RufrixH
I can't comment specifically on others but I joined Easy direct to the left seat having previously never had a jet command. IMHO there are some very capable operators who did the same.
I've been there for a few years and last year turned down a 757 command elsewhere.( Proving of course that I shouldn't be anywhere near a jet!)
I can't comment specifically on others but I joined Easy direct to the left seat having previously never had a jet command. IMHO there are some very capable operators who did the same.
I've been there for a few years and last year turned down a 757 command elsewhere.( Proving of course that I shouldn't be anywhere near a jet!)
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Tend to agree with RH. I know of several pilots who went the LCA route because they had been passed over for command. My employer also had a company policy that staff were not to use certain LCA's for positioning flights because their standards were inadequate.
Join Date: Aug 2002
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I'm not suggesting that all the F/Os who joined EJ as captains are below par - just the two jokers who left here in '98. It is however a natural assumption that if EJ were willing to take them, then they probably took others of the same caliber. The point I was making is simple - the arrogance of the EJ recruitment policy in 2002 is astounding given their past record. Equally, the chest beating by a group of people previously unable to attain a mainline career or unable to progress to captain is hypocritical and short sighted in the extreme.
As for the safety implications of the low cost model - we'll just have to wait and see.
As for the safety implications of the low cost model - we'll just have to wait and see.
Join Date: Jul 2001
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How many of you have experienced the reciprocal arrangement where airlines interview you, in case they get a contract or have increased requirement? Their happy to pass you at the interview, and keep you hanging on for months, only to reject your services if things don't go as they expected. We've all accepted that for years, easy throw the teddy as soon as any one does it to them!
ex-Tanker
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When I did my course the standards were rigorous. One of my "wingmen" was chopped during the sim phase. Two of my ex-Swissair colleagues failed the interview - one the course.
The reason for this high (pernickity?) training/selection standard isn't arrogance but rather the knowledge that, as mentioned above, a crash would be very bad for easy. Mistakes were indeed made in selection in the past and it was explained to us that Stelios himself had demanded a narrow tolerance on new selections.
As for FOs being tarred "unsuitable for command" at an early stage in a big airline - I imagine that that is the end of their career prospects unless they a) pull their socks up and b) change employer. You can't blame them for trying to improve. I have seen many pilots mature later in their careers.
The reason for this high (pernickity?) training/selection standard isn't arrogance but rather the knowledge that, as mentioned above, a crash would be very bad for easy. Mistakes were indeed made in selection in the past and it was explained to us that Stelios himself had demanded a narrow tolerance on new selections.
As for FOs being tarred "unsuitable for command" at an early stage in a big airline - I imagine that that is the end of their career prospects unless they a) pull their socks up and b) change employer. You can't blame them for trying to improve. I have seen many pilots mature later in their careers.
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Not so easy....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2188536.stm
---
Legal threat over easyJet flight
Passengers were offered alternate easyJet flights
A solicitor from Liverpool is threatening low-cost airline easyJet with legal action after his flight to Paris was cancelled because no crew was available.
Brian Camp claims he was ejected by security at Liverpool John Lennon Airport when he tried to advise his fellow passengers about their rights to claim compensation.
Mr Camp, who was going to France with four friends and his wife, Julie, said the group has lost up to £3,000 because of the cancellation.
He said although he and up to 100 stranded passengers were offered refunds for the flight, easyJet's response was "inadequate".
It's not been a good few weeks for us, but we're doing something about it an easyJet spokeswoman admitted.
On Monday, Mr Camp, from Wirral, told BBC News Online said: "Ninety minutes after the flight should have left, we were told it had been cancelled and that was literally it.
"We got a message saying bring your boarding cards to the desk and arrange to pick up your luggage, there was no apology from easyJet."
He said he was asked to leave immediately he advised passengers to be wary about signing away their rights to future compensation claims against the company.
He said: "All I said was 'When you get to the front, don't sign anything', at which point I was immediately asked to leave the airport by security."
An easyJet spokeswoman said however, that after the flight - EZY637 - was cancelled, staff did everything to ensure passengers were offered alternatives.
'Hotel places'
She said: "We offered passengers a refund, or to put them up in a hotel and a place on the first flight on Saturday morning from Liverpool."
Because of the delays, she explained, it meant the crew ran out of flight hours under aviation law, and attempts to find a replacement crew failed.
A new staff rostering system has also contributed to delays, she admitted, as well as air traffic control problems that were outside their control.
"It's not been a good few weeks for us, but we're doing something about it," she added.
She could not comment on Mr Camp's claims of being ejected by security.
---
Legal threat over easyJet flight
Passengers were offered alternate easyJet flights
A solicitor from Liverpool is threatening low-cost airline easyJet with legal action after his flight to Paris was cancelled because no crew was available.
Brian Camp claims he was ejected by security at Liverpool John Lennon Airport when he tried to advise his fellow passengers about their rights to claim compensation.
Mr Camp, who was going to France with four friends and his wife, Julie, said the group has lost up to £3,000 because of the cancellation.
He said although he and up to 100 stranded passengers were offered refunds for the flight, easyJet's response was "inadequate".
It's not been a good few weeks for us, but we're doing something about it an easyJet spokeswoman admitted.
On Monday, Mr Camp, from Wirral, told BBC News Online said: "Ninety minutes after the flight should have left, we were told it had been cancelled and that was literally it.
"We got a message saying bring your boarding cards to the desk and arrange to pick up your luggage, there was no apology from easyJet."
He said he was asked to leave immediately he advised passengers to be wary about signing away their rights to future compensation claims against the company.
He said: "All I said was 'When you get to the front, don't sign anything', at which point I was immediately asked to leave the airport by security."
An easyJet spokeswoman said however, that after the flight - EZY637 - was cancelled, staff did everything to ensure passengers were offered alternatives.
'Hotel places'
She said: "We offered passengers a refund, or to put them up in a hotel and a place on the first flight on Saturday morning from Liverpool."
Because of the delays, she explained, it meant the crew ran out of flight hours under aviation law, and attempts to find a replacement crew failed.
A new staff rostering system has also contributed to delays, she admitted, as well as air traffic control problems that were outside their control.
"It's not been a good few weeks for us, but we're doing something about it," she added.
She could not comment on Mr Camp's claims of being ejected by security.
Join Date: Oct 1999
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OK, lets get back to the subject. The disruptions have been caused by rostering. A new system was introduced which was known to be flawed in our environment. Many experienced personel pointed this out at the time but were ignored by the rostering manager. The system proved (surprise, surprise) to not work under the EZ model. £Millions wasted. Shareholders robbed. Market should demand that heads should roll. We know which head. In the name of God, go.
Or stay, and continue to enjoy the universal loathing of your workforce.
Or stay, and continue to enjoy the universal loathing of your workforce.
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BTB,
Gave you a bit of a hard time on the coy. site-sorry about that-sort of see where you're coming from.
Please don't let esy agro and selection system upset you to the point of attacks on the standards of the aircrew.
This forum is open to the world-suggestions that we'er about to crash an aircraft due to a boardroom cockup is stupid.
Only a fool and a bad pilot could make that connection. If you feel that eJ let you down then I'm sorry-but it sound like it was the best for everyone-you may well have been unhappy on the line.
I have to speak up for the "low cost pilots" I believe that this sector has, and will produce, some excellent future leaders.
I am one of them-I know my limits and I'm proud to be so.
Our problems are many but I can distinguish between my company, my job and airmanship.
So if you can do the same you could end up flying for us-if you showed you could not-well you end up on pprune.
Gave you a bit of a hard time on the coy. site-sorry about that-sort of see where you're coming from.
Please don't let esy agro and selection system upset you to the point of attacks on the standards of the aircrew.
This forum is open to the world-suggestions that we'er about to crash an aircraft due to a boardroom cockup is stupid.
Only a fool and a bad pilot could make that connection. If you feel that eJ let you down then I'm sorry-but it sound like it was the best for everyone-you may well have been unhappy on the line.
I have to speak up for the "low cost pilots" I believe that this sector has, and will produce, some excellent future leaders.
I am one of them-I know my limits and I'm proud to be so.
Our problems are many but I can distinguish between my company, my job and airmanship.
So if you can do the same you could end up flying for us-if you showed you could not-well you end up on pprune.
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Sorry Little Friend. The research is clear and there is a lot of it. There are measurable correlations between boardroom decisions and rates of critical incidents. Only a fool would deny the connection. But note that I say RATES of critical incidents. The problem is that it is very difficult to attribute any particular critical incident to to any particular board decision. Therefore lots of linear thinkers and incompetent managers can pretend there isn't a connection.
The question is how far good airmanship can reasonably be expected to compensate for poor governance and management.
The question is how far good airmanship can reasonably be expected to compensate for poor governance and management.
Chief PPRuNe Pilot
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flch10000, it is petty comments such as your last one that really gives eejits a bad name. If you were priveleged to be given a jump seat ride and then you knowingly disparage the crew by making assumptions about their skills and try and do what the scumbag tabloid journos do by 'kissing and telling' then you deserve every bit of flame that is coming to you!
Either you are fully qualified B737 pilot with lots of experience and you were plugged into the comms and were fully aware of what was going on or else you are wannabe who hasn't got what it takes with FS2000 and 'think' you know what was going on but really haven't got a clue but want to sound as though you do on here.
You make such a stupid statement and yet you obviously have no idea what you are on about yourself. If you really knew you'd have known what page a STAR is entered in or built up on, amd it isn't the RTE page.
Either edit your post or stand by to be flamed on here. I won't stand for professional pilots being put down by nobodies who are trying oneupmanship but without the qualifications to back it up!
Either you are fully qualified B737 pilot with lots of experience and you were plugged into the comms and were fully aware of what was going on or else you are wannabe who hasn't got what it takes with FS2000 and 'think' you know what was going on but really haven't got a clue but want to sound as though you do on here.
...fiddling with the FMC obviously oblivious of how to enter a STAR into the RTE page...
Either edit your post or stand by to be flamed on here. I won't stand for professional pilots being put down by nobodies who are trying oneupmanship but without the qualifications to back it up!
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Look here I made one mistake RTE rather than ARRIVALS, its been a long day.
However that does not permit you to state:
"Either you are fully qualified B737 pilot with lots of experience and you were plugged into the comms and were fully aware of what was going on or else you are wannabe who hasn't got what it takes with FS2000"
Does a 737-300 rating from FSI count? Probably not in your book.
I think if you browse through my previous posts people will come to theit own conclusion on my authenticity.
Or are you the Judge and Jury?
However that does not permit you to state:
"Either you are fully qualified B737 pilot with lots of experience and you were plugged into the comms and were fully aware of what was going on or else you are wannabe who hasn't got what it takes with FS2000"
Does a 737-300 rating from FSI count? Probably not in your book.
I think if you browse through my previous posts people will come to theit own conclusion on my authenticity.
Or are you the Judge and Jury?
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flch10000,
Actually Danny is the judge and the jury, it is his site !
If you knew anything about fmc's you would know that the raw points and speed / hard altitudes that load into the route when selecting a star, often require modifcation, often based on crew experience, to create a more realistic LNAV and VNAV profile of the arrival.
For example, on my fmc if i select EGKK with a WILLO 3C arrival and WILLO transition, it will include the HOLLY - WILLO hold, which isnt always used, and a hard altitude of 4000' at MAY, which I normally delete as you are usually above this and it is not in the STAR.
Actually Danny is the judge and the jury, it is his site !
If you knew anything about fmc's you would know that the raw points and speed / hard altitudes that load into the route when selecting a star, often require modifcation, often based on crew experience, to create a more realistic LNAV and VNAV profile of the arrival.
For example, on my fmc if i select EGKK with a WILLO 3C arrival and WILLO transition, it will include the HOLLY - WILLO hold, which isnt always used, and a hard altitude of 4000' at MAY, which I normally delete as you are usually above this and it is not in the STAR.
Sigh. The skipper would have - what - 3,500hrs+ to have earned his seat. Are you suggesting he has those hours and passed a command selection course whilst being unsure about basic FMC operation?
It is utterly pointless to speculate upon crew proficiency between airlines. All actual practicing airline crews I know of actively abstain from doing so. Unless you are CAA flight standards personnel I suggest you do the same.
Sitting on the jumpseat without informing the crew of your relevant flying experience is an odd thing for a professional pilot to do. Your posts on this thread are an even odder thing to do.
WWW
It is utterly pointless to speculate upon crew proficiency between airlines. All actual practicing airline crews I know of actively abstain from doing so. Unless you are CAA flight standards personnel I suggest you do the same.
Sitting on the jumpseat without informing the crew of your relevant flying experience is an odd thing for a professional pilot to do. Your posts on this thread are an even odder thing to do.
WWW
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Ahhh the WWW... I wondered when...
Actually this thread was merged from another thread, probably quite rightly as it was Ez related on a similar subject.
And I am not a professional pilot, but can quite happily justify my knowledge, although I agree it is tempered with a lack of any experience as such.
The fact is I know what I saw. Two Crew fiddling about with the CDUs unsure about arrival procedure operation. Two heads down was enough warning for me.
Actually this thread was merged from another thread, probably quite rightly as it was Ez related on a similar subject.
And I am not a professional pilot, but can quite happily justify my knowledge, although I agree it is tempered with a lack of any experience as such.
The fact is I know what I saw. Two Crew fiddling about with the CDUs unsure about arrival procedure operation. Two heads down was enough warning for me.
Last edited by flch10000; 12th Aug 2002 at 20:57.
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My, my. Such anger, I'm sure you rate highly in the CRM department.
As I stated I do not fly for a living, and thus do not qualify myself in any particular way.
However, your analogy reflects your lack of reasoning power. I'd still respect the reply of a newly qualified accountant if I were chief accountant.
As such, however meaningless a 73 rating is to you, it allows me to state my observations based upon my time spent on a line flight.
I make a statement and yet get slated for it. No dissent allowed on this board? Reminds me of some place in the 1930's, first the Guv...
As I stated I do not fly for a living, and thus do not qualify myself in any particular way.
However, your analogy reflects your lack of reasoning power. I'd still respect the reply of a newly qualified accountant if I were chief accountant.
As such, however meaningless a 73 rating is to you, it allows me to state my observations based upon my time spent on a line flight.
I make a statement and yet get slated for it. No dissent allowed on this board? Reminds me of some place in the 1930's, first the Guv...