Easyjet FO anxiety attack
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Hadley's Hope, LV426
Posts: 167
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As a pilot who has experienced anxiety and its crippling affects on life, I read this thread with much interest and sadness.
Firstly, my absolute best wishes to the FO involved, and I hope they get the help they need and that things work out. I hope that Easy give the individual involved lots of support, and the same from the CAA (in my experience they were understanding and have been very supportive).
A worrying incident at a vital phase in flight, however it can happen to any of us. Life's pressures sometimes just get too much. My own experience was the illness of my youngest son which resulted in a lot of serious stress and worry, 6 months of practically no sleep, my wife having Post-Natal depression followed by a mental breakdown and almost the end of our marriage; thankfully, all of which has now been resolved, my children area healthy, happy and well, our marriage is good, and we are both well again, albeit on medication. My medical was held up for several months whilst I had to see a CAA Psych and have a flight test with medical report, however thankfully all was sorted in the end and now I have my medical again. There are many pilots, professional or not, in the same situation. Thankfully I have never had any symptoms in flight (or for the past 18 months I have been on medication for that fact) however from experience when it strikes it can be completely debilitating; it is like being a rabbit trapped in the headlights.
I am saddened by the ignorance and heartlessness shown by some on this thread; anxiety is not something you can appreciate until you have suffered from it. The good news is, help is out there, and when managed it represents no barrier to life at all, or to flight competency. It is very sad to see so many in the aviation community here with total ignorance of mental health issues. Presumably such people are perfect in every way, yes?
Anyway, just my views, for all its worth. Blue skies to you all.
Firstly, my absolute best wishes to the FO involved, and I hope they get the help they need and that things work out. I hope that Easy give the individual involved lots of support, and the same from the CAA (in my experience they were understanding and have been very supportive).
A worrying incident at a vital phase in flight, however it can happen to any of us. Life's pressures sometimes just get too much. My own experience was the illness of my youngest son which resulted in a lot of serious stress and worry, 6 months of practically no sleep, my wife having Post-Natal depression followed by a mental breakdown and almost the end of our marriage; thankfully, all of which has now been resolved, my children area healthy, happy and well, our marriage is good, and we are both well again, albeit on medication. My medical was held up for several months whilst I had to see a CAA Psych and have a flight test with medical report, however thankfully all was sorted in the end and now I have my medical again. There are many pilots, professional or not, in the same situation. Thankfully I have never had any symptoms in flight (or for the past 18 months I have been on medication for that fact) however from experience when it strikes it can be completely debilitating; it is like being a rabbit trapped in the headlights.
I am saddened by the ignorance and heartlessness shown by some on this thread; anxiety is not something you can appreciate until you have suffered from it. The good news is, help is out there, and when managed it represents no barrier to life at all, or to flight competency. It is very sad to see so many in the aviation community here with total ignorance of mental health issues. Presumably such people are perfect in every way, yes?
Anyway, just my views, for all its worth. Blue skies to you all.
For sure, we should be considerate, and I hope I was.
We don’t know exactly what happened, only what was reported, However, if a pilot with nearly 700 hours does not feel they can control and arrest a sideways drift close to minima, and/or has to go around - and this situation scares them - well, are they really in the right profession? and didn’t they cover this situation in training?
Just a thought: Do cadets these days still do spinning and spin recovery during their ATPLs? What about engine failure during a go-around in an MEP? I can’t see someone who is scared of going around from minima being comfortable in a spinning aircraft, or with an engine failure !
We don’t know exactly what happened, only what was reported, However, if a pilot with nearly 700 hours does not feel they can control and arrest a sideways drift close to minima, and/or has to go around - and this situation scares them - well, are they really in the right profession? and didn’t they cover this situation in training?
Just a thought: Do cadets these days still do spinning and spin recovery during their ATPLs? What about engine failure during a go-around in an MEP? I can’t see someone who is scared of going around from minima being comfortable in a spinning aircraft, or with an engine failure !
de minimus non curat lex
Mandatory Upset Recovery Training in being introduced later this year as part of the CPL/IR,
and a requirement before the first multi-crew type rating for those in the transitional period.
and a requirement before the first multi-crew type rating for those in the transitional period.
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: London
Posts: 611
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No mandatory incipient or developed spin training required during basic training any longer Uplinker although there is some quite advanced UPRT conducted at one school I'm aware of although to be introduced in due course as described by parkfell.
TelsBoy - pleased to hear that you have returned to flying and that you are managing your health; good news. Did you identify an issue in advance and declare to your AME or did you suffer an episode in flight which lead to a declaration of reduced medical fitness? I ask because a big part of the problem with mental health appears to be the recognition that anything is abnormal by the sufferer. I speak as someone who has experienced at first hand a close relative who, after a significant period of time where we and colleagues knew things weren't right, has been diagnosed with a form of paranoid psychosis. Although not employed in a safety critical function when working, my relative will not accept the diagnosis, refuses to continue a course of medication, has lost an influential and high earning job (following a number of incidents of unusual and erratic behaviour) with little prospect of a return to the workplace, and refuses to acknowledge that there is an organic problem that might be managed successfully. My relative hid the symptoms well for a number of years although became something of a recluse in the process and although not employed in the aviation industry, an attitude prevailed where mental health was/is not openly discussed for fear of being perceived as weak and a risk, despite well advertised peer support and counselling resources.
Germanwings certainly lead to some changes in terms of how we manage mental health in European aviation to some extent, but I worry about the perceived stigma associated with a diagnosis in what remains a very conservative work environment. The risk associated with undeclared or 'unseen' disabilities in a locked cockpit environment is not well understood, despite Germanwings 9525 - there remains much reliance on self-declaration.
TelsBoy - pleased to hear that you have returned to flying and that you are managing your health; good news. Did you identify an issue in advance and declare to your AME or did you suffer an episode in flight which lead to a declaration of reduced medical fitness? I ask because a big part of the problem with mental health appears to be the recognition that anything is abnormal by the sufferer. I speak as someone who has experienced at first hand a close relative who, after a significant period of time where we and colleagues knew things weren't right, has been diagnosed with a form of paranoid psychosis. Although not employed in a safety critical function when working, my relative will not accept the diagnosis, refuses to continue a course of medication, has lost an influential and high earning job (following a number of incidents of unusual and erratic behaviour) with little prospect of a return to the workplace, and refuses to acknowledge that there is an organic problem that might be managed successfully. My relative hid the symptoms well for a number of years although became something of a recluse in the process and although not employed in the aviation industry, an attitude prevailed where mental health was/is not openly discussed for fear of being perceived as weak and a risk, despite well advertised peer support and counselling resources.
Germanwings certainly lead to some changes in terms of how we manage mental health in European aviation to some extent, but I worry about the perceived stigma associated with a diagnosis in what remains a very conservative work environment. The risk associated with undeclared or 'unseen' disabilities in a locked cockpit environment is not well understood, despite Germanwings 9525 - there remains much reliance on self-declaration.
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Having a margarita on the beach
Posts: 2,419
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As a pilot who has experienced anxiety and its crippling affects on life, I read this thread with much interest and sadness.
Firstly, my absolute best wishes to the FO involved, and I hope they get the help they need and that things work out. I hope that Easy give the individual involved lots of support, and the same from the CAA (in my experience they were understanding and have been very supportive).
A worrying incident at a vital phase in flight, however it can happen to any of us. Life's pressures sometimes just get too much. My own experience was the illness of my youngest son which resulted in a lot of serious stress and worry, 6 months of practically no sleep, my wife having Post-Natal depression followed by a mental breakdown and almost the end of our marriage; thankfully, all of which has now been resolved, my children area healthy, happy and well, our marriage is good, and we are both well again, albeit on medication. My medical was held up for several months whilst I had to see a CAA Psych and have a flight test with medical report, however thankfully all was sorted in the end and now I have my medical again. There are many pilots, professional or not, in the same situation. Thankfully I have never had any symptoms in flight (or for the past 18 months I have been on medication for that fact) however from experience when it strikes it can be completely debilitating; it is like being a rabbit trapped in the headlights.
I am saddened by the ignorance and heartlessness shown by some on this thread; anxiety is not something you can appreciate until you have suffered from it. The good news is, help is out there, and when managed it represents no barrier to life at all, or to flight competency. It is very sad to see so many in the aviation community here with total ignorance of mental health issues. Presumably such people are perfect in every way, yes?
Anyway, just my views, for all its worth. Blue skies to you all.
Firstly, my absolute best wishes to the FO involved, and I hope they get the help they need and that things work out. I hope that Easy give the individual involved lots of support, and the same from the CAA (in my experience they were understanding and have been very supportive).
A worrying incident at a vital phase in flight, however it can happen to any of us. Life's pressures sometimes just get too much. My own experience was the illness of my youngest son which resulted in a lot of serious stress and worry, 6 months of practically no sleep, my wife having Post-Natal depression followed by a mental breakdown and almost the end of our marriage; thankfully, all of which has now been resolved, my children area healthy, happy and well, our marriage is good, and we are both well again, albeit on medication. My medical was held up for several months whilst I had to see a CAA Psych and have a flight test with medical report, however thankfully all was sorted in the end and now I have my medical again. There are many pilots, professional or not, in the same situation. Thankfully I have never had any symptoms in flight (or for the past 18 months I have been on medication for that fact) however from experience when it strikes it can be completely debilitating; it is like being a rabbit trapped in the headlights.
I am saddened by the ignorance and heartlessness shown by some on this thread; anxiety is not something you can appreciate until you have suffered from it. The good news is, help is out there, and when managed it represents no barrier to life at all, or to flight competency. It is very sad to see so many in the aviation community here with total ignorance of mental health issues. Presumably such people are perfect in every way, yes?
Anyway, just my views, for all its worth. Blue skies to you all.
I believe Your case to be different though from the one discussed above, as You have faced non aviation related heavy stressors that have (very understandably !) triggered a clinical anxiety that could have obviously have had repercussions also on your work and all other life activities, so the top notch (and difficult) decision making was too go and seek for help.
As far as I understood on this thread the young fella was subject to some heavy stressors directly linked to his flight activity at a very early stage of his life, hence the question of pursuing in this career path or looking somewhere else ?
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Earth
Posts: 666
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just a thought: Do cadets these days still do spinning and spin recovery during their ATPLs? What about engine failure during a go-around in an MEP? I can’t see someone who is scared of going around from minima being comfortable in a spinning aircraft, or with an engine failure !
Though if this person in question was an MPL student then they may never have done the last part, i understand they never fly an mep.
There was some interesting UPRT during type rating though. Those new sims are capable of some very aggressive and sudden scenarios to say the least
de minimus non curat lex
I know I have mentioned it in the past, from the QFI point of view, about turning ac upside down etc /spinning etc but if any BA pilots who trained at Prestwick late 1980s+ would like to contribute to the benefits of their AS202 Bravo flying, it might assist in explaining why EASA has introduced the limited mandatory training. Probably a political compromise as ever.
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Looking for the signals square at LHR
Posts: 236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know I have mentioned it in the past, from the QFI point of view, about turning ac upside down etc /spinning etc but if any BA pilots who trained at Prestwick late 1980s+ would like to contribute to the benefits of their AS202 Bravo flying, it might assist in explaining why EASA has introduced the limited mandatory training. Probably a political compromise as ever.
Don't know what is included in UPRT but imagine it may be sort of equivalent to what I remember as Recovery from Unusual Attitudes.
@Telsboy: I was stressed once. I went to my GP thinking he might prescribe sleeping aids or something but after diagnosing my symptoms he said “you’re stressed and I am signing you off work for 2 weeks starting today”. This hit me like a slap on the face, because I didn’t feel stressed at all, I just couldn’t seem to do my job as well as I usually did and didn’t know what was wrong with me. (A lot of stuff was going on at home).
Very interesting that spinning and MEP flying and engine failure in a twin on go-around has been dropped from the ATPL. That’s the problem right there. We did both in real aircraft, not in a SiM. Ditto unusual attitude recovery. It prepares you for bad situations and gives you the confidence that you can deal with them and recover safely. It also would weed out any cadets who were truly scared by flying.
Spinning always made me uncomfortable, but only like on a roller coaster where you get very very uncomfortable for a moment when it changes direction or plummets, but you know deep down that you are perfectly safe. Spinning training in a Zlin, as we did, was worse, since it seemed to flip over on to its back when entering the spin. However, a few years later, I inadvertently span a Shed - real one, not a SIM - an empty training flight with no passengers (!) - and because of my spin training, I was not scared, just momentarily WTF? and looking out of the windscreen at fields rotating below us. Then; right, spin recovery, here we go.
Towards the end of the ATPL course, we went up in the Zlin again and flew inverted. That was very weird.
But now, I am not worried by anything the atmosphere throws at me. I know I can fly it or get away from it.
How can a cadet with no actual spin experience or actual real twin prop engine failure experience, possibly have that deep confidence going straight from an SEP onto an Airbus or Boeing?
Very interesting that spinning and MEP flying and engine failure in a twin on go-around has been dropped from the ATPL. That’s the problem right there. We did both in real aircraft, not in a SiM. Ditto unusual attitude recovery. It prepares you for bad situations and gives you the confidence that you can deal with them and recover safely. It also would weed out any cadets who were truly scared by flying.
Spinning always made me uncomfortable, but only like on a roller coaster where you get very very uncomfortable for a moment when it changes direction or plummets, but you know deep down that you are perfectly safe. Spinning training in a Zlin, as we did, was worse, since it seemed to flip over on to its back when entering the spin. However, a few years later, I inadvertently span a Shed - real one, not a SIM - an empty training flight with no passengers (!) - and because of my spin training, I was not scared, just momentarily WTF? and looking out of the windscreen at fields rotating below us. Then; right, spin recovery, here we go.
Towards the end of the ATPL course, we went up in the Zlin again and flew inverted. That was very weird.
But now, I am not worried by anything the atmosphere throws at me. I know I can fly it or get away from it.
How can a cadet with no actual spin experience or actual real twin prop engine failure experience, possibly have that deep confidence going straight from an SEP onto an Airbus or Boeing?
Last edited by Uplinker; 18th Sep 2019 at 10:27.
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Earth
Posts: 666
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Very interesting that spinning and MEP flying and engine failure in a twin on go-around has been dropped from the ATPL. That’s the problem right there. We did both in real aircraft, not in a SiM. Ditto unusual attitude recovery. It prepares you for bad situations and gives you the confidence that you can deal with them and recover safely. It also would weed out any cadets who were truly scared by flying.
But now, I am not worried by anything the atmosphere throws at me. I know I can fly it or get away from it.
How can a cadet with no actual spin experience or actual, real twin prop engine failure experience, possibly have that deep confidence going straight from a SEP onto an Airbus or Boeing?
But now, I am not worried by anything the atmosphere throws at me. I know I can fly it or get away from it.
How can a cadet with no actual spin experience or actual, real twin prop engine failure experience, possibly have that deep confidence going straight from a SEP onto an Airbus or Boeing?
de minimus non curat lex
You might recall a BA 747 overflying Africa probably 20 years or so ago, when a mentally ill passenger entered the flight deck “with intent”.
The Captain “poked” him in the eyes as the FO fought to keep control of the ac.
The ac eventually rolled by 94° with the nose dropping.
Fortunately the FO was ex Hawk whose previous experience of came to the fore, and smoothly returned in to straight & level.
A good example of why appropriate training prior to licence is important.
The Captain “poked” him in the eyes as the FO fought to keep control of the ac.
The ac eventually rolled by 94° with the nose dropping.
Fortunately the FO was ex Hawk whose previous experience of came to the fore, and smoothly returned in to straight & level.
A good example of why appropriate training prior to licence is important.
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: London
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Officer Kite I’m not sure where you’ve got this information from. Speaking from firsthand experience of the easyJet MPL at least, the MEP training syllabus is still covered and the initial UPRT covers recovery from high and low nose attitudes, incipient spins and fully developed spins in an aerobatic SEP.
Last edited by Oxazole; 18th Sep 2019 at 16:42.
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: FL390
Posts: 236
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When Bank of Mum &Dad get little snowflake into the flight deck of a pay-to-fly scheme, it is too late.
This is no different to any other issue that might require medical treatment, and since the pilot is back at work and both easyJet and the regulator are content, there is nothing more to say.
Other than, of course, to point out to the dinosaurs that life has moved on since the 1940s.
When Bank of Mum &Dad get little snowflake into the flight deck of a pay-to-fly scheme, it is too late.Even the professionals charged with "training" the unlikely cadets are not acting swiftly enough with the clear no-hopers.
As for the guy in question, my sympathies, sometimes it is very easy to feel overwhelmed, nothing to be ashamed of, happens to us all to some degree.
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Earth
Posts: 666
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Officer Kite I’m not sure where you’ve got this information from. Speaking from firsthand experience of the easyJet MPL at least, the MEP training syllabus is still covered and the initial UPRT covers recovery from high and low nose attitudes, incipient spins and fully developed spins in an aerobatic SEP.
As for spin training, again it is not mandatory. Some do (oaa i know did aerobatic uprt in the usa) full spins etc and others just cover stalls and other unusual attitude recoveries - i myself never did a spin as I previously mentioned (CPL/IR). We covered how to recover were it to occur, but didn’t do one. To be fair though i don’t know anyone even from other schools who did actually fully spin in am aircraft, it’s a serious situation to be playing with.
Panic attacks can happen for no apparent reason to people with no history of anxiety or metal illness. Young and old.
Unless he has panic disorder and didn't disclose it, leave the poor person alone. The last thing he needs is to log onto Prune and see people judging him.
Unless he has panic disorder and didn't disclose it, leave the poor person alone. The last thing he needs is to log onto Prune and see people judging him.
With the correct instruction/handling, with aforethought, in a suitably certified aircraft, spinning should be a routine manoeuvre, albeit one you shouldn't be casual about undertaking.
I think one problem we have is that some younger aviators have possibly never ever indulged in the likes of aeros or experienced extreme attitudes in a real aircraft. That can sometimes just perhaps produce a mindset, perhaps even a fear, that anything much more than e.g. 30 angle of bank is getting close to the "edge of the envelope"- in the Chuck Yeager, not FQIS, sense of the term..
de minimus non curat lex
My information is the ICAO MPL syllabus itself and it does not mandate MEP aircraft usage during the little actual flight hours there are in the MPL course. That isn’t to say some schools do not use an MEP, it’s to say they don’t have to and a large number don’t.
As for spin training, again it is not mandatory. Some do (oaa i know did aerobatic uprt in the usa) full spins etc and others just cover stalls and other unusual attitude recoveries - i myself never did a spin as I previously mentioned (CPL/IR). We covered how to recover were it to occur, but didn’t do one. To be fair though i don’t know anyone even from other schools who did actually fully spin in am aircraft, it’s a serious situation to be playing with.
As Wiggy says nothing to fear for junior birdmen
Spin training is a matter of routine provided the briefings and teaching are robust
Officer KIte: your inbox is full, unable to PM
