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51 Years since AF 1611 Caravelle crashed near Nice-still secret

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51 Years since AF 1611 Caravelle crashed near Nice-still secret

Old 10th Sep 2019, 18:51
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51 Years since AF 1611 Caravelle crashed near Nice-still secret

51 Year Anniversary Air France 1611 Caravelle "Shoot Down" near Nice 11th September 1968-Courtesy Guardian UK





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Old 10th Sep 2019, 18:55
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I recall this incident fairly well given the time span and remain less than astonished at just how many successive governments treat their citizens in such a manner. Of course there will always be a few incidents which must remain secret, perhaps even forever but I wonder just how many are hidden unneccessarily.
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Old 10th Sep 2019, 21:18
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Good grief, hadn't heard of this. Well you don't classify unless you have something to protect: presumably the identities of those responsible. Surprised nothing ' leaked': not everyone in the know can have been happy.
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Old 10th Sep 2019, 21:44
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This accident has similarities to the Itavia 870 flight, a DC9 that crashed in the mediterranean in 1980.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itavia_Flight_870
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Old 10th Sep 2019, 21:50
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Why does "shoot down" make me think of the number 800?
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Old 10th Sep 2019, 22:09
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Originally Posted by Raffles S.A. View Post

Why does "shoot down" make me think of the number 800?
People still think that that was shot down by a missile even though it was found to be worn insulation in wires running through a vapour rich centre fuel tank.
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Old 10th Sep 2019, 22:56
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Sibir 1812 was accidentally shot down by a Ukrainian S-200 that was originally targeted at a drone which was taken out by another missile. On its way back down, it acquired Sibir 1812.

After initial denials, the Ukrainian military made payments to the families:

Wikipedia Entry

The French coverup continues
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Old 11th Sep 2019, 00:25
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Originally Posted by Speed of Sound View Post


People still think that that was shot down by a missile even though it was found to be worn insulation in wires running through a vapour rich centre fuel tank.

people still wonder because of the slightly far-fetched explanation on why that tank exploded, and witness reports, and the FBI comandeering the investigation..https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/...6shrg65055.htm
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Old 11th Sep 2019, 00:50
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Originally Posted by ironbutt57 View Post
people still wonder because of the slightly far-fetched explanation on why that tank exploded, and witness reports, and the FBI comandeering the investigation..https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/...6shrg65055.htm
We had to turn off the center tank pumps with 500 kg remaining in the center tank after this (757, 767). One day we no had to do it anymore. Same pumps. Same tanks.
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Old 11th Sep 2019, 01:26
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Originally Posted by svhar View Post
We had to turn off the center tank pumps with 500 kg remaining in the center tank after this (757, 767). One day we no had to do it anymore. Same pumps. Same tanks.
I know, was flying 757 at the time
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Old 11th Sep 2019, 02:17
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Originally Posted by svhar View Post
We had to turn off the center tank pumps with 500 kg remaining in the center tank after this (757, 767). One day we no had to do it anymore. Same pumps. Same tanks.
Are you sure there were no changes? Boeing developed a center fuel tank inerting system in direct response to the TWA 800 accident. It uses engine bleed air, separates out the nitrogen from the oxygen - the nitrogen is pumped into the center fuel tank while the O2 is dumped overboard. It keeps the O2 concentration in the center tank low enough that ignition is extremely unlikely even with an ignition source. Installation of the center fuel tank inerting system was mandated for all 757 and 767 aircraft. My memory is a bit foggy on the dates, but I think it had to be done by around 2015.
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Old 11th Sep 2019, 07:05
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My French is a bit rusty but I believe the conclusion is that it was caused by a fire in the cabin however the authorities were unable to determine what caused the fire.
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Old 11th Sep 2019, 09:43
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Originally Posted by SamYeager View Post
My French is a bit rusty but I believe the conclusion is that it was caused by a fire in the cabin however the authorities were unable to determine what caused the fire.
Not in the cabin but in the toilet. various causes were looked but all remain an hypothesis.
What I remember from that time was that the military were very nervous , and that some documents ,went missing that day . The page of the ATC log from Aix ACC that recorded the activity of the firing range nearby , where they did test missiles, was teared off. That led to the rumor and speculation that it was a missile that brought down the SE210. At that time it was ( probably still is ) the case when French military were involved or fear they might get involved, they always stopped any investigation under the "Secret defense"
I guess now all the people involved are probably dead, so we get see some documents now released to the public..

Recently the french Submarine that went down mysteriously also 50 years ago, the "Minerve" , where the French Navy always said they did not know where it was, was recovered within 48hours after some papers were made public..
50 years is a bloody long time for the families to know what happened to their loved ones...
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Old 11th Sep 2019, 12:06
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Originally Posted by tdracer View Post
Are you sure there were no changes? Boeing developed a center fuel tank inerting system in direct response to the TWA 800 accident. It uses engine bleed air, separates out the nitrogen from the oxygen - the nitrogen is pumped into the center fuel tank while the O2 is dumped overboard. It keeps the O2 concentration in the center tank low enough that ignition is extremely unlikely even with an ignition source. Installation of the center fuel tank inerting system was mandated for all 757 and 767 aircraft. My memory is a bit foggy on the dates, but I think it had to be done by around 2015.
I'm not sure what year the deadline was, but I recently (maybe a few years back) read that Thai Airways was retiring their 747s because that deadline was approaching. Mind you, the accident happened in 1996. I never understood how the deadline for a design flaw so deadly could be allowed 20 years to be rectified. And actually I'm not sure how many airlines, if any, installed the inert gas system.
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Old 11th Sep 2019, 12:19
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Originally Posted by UltraFan View Post
I'm not sure what year the deadline was, but I recently (maybe a few years back) read that Thai Airways was retiring their 747s because that deadline was approaching. Mind you, the accident happened in 1996. I never understood how the deadline for a design flaw so deadly could be allowed 20 years to be rectified. And actually I'm not sure how many airlines, if any, installed the inert gas system.
AC 120-98A: Operator Information for Incorporating Fuel Tank Flammability Reduction Requirements into a Maintenance or Inspection Program
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Old 11th Sep 2019, 12:38
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Originally Posted by UltraFan View Post
I'm not sure what year the deadline was, but I recently (maybe a few years back) read that Thai Airways was retiring their 747s because that deadline was approaching. Mind you, the accident happened in 1996. I never understood how the deadline for a design flaw so deadly could be allowed 20 years to be rectified. And actually I'm not sure how many airlines, if any, installed the inert gas system.
They still have a number of -400s in service (about 11 of which 7 are active I believe)

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Old 11th Sep 2019, 13:40
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I spoke against this incorporation on the basis that in addition to the probabilistic assessment of a reduced incidence of fuel tank explosions it must also take into account probabilistic injuries and deaths due to maintenance actions in servicing..

When designing a system to address historically low probabilities, one needs to also consider the undocumented downsides of a corrective action.
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Old 11th Sep 2019, 16:27
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_1611
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Old 11th Sep 2019, 17:33
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Ah the conspiracy theorists are out in numbers today.

TWA 800 caused a massive change in the way aircraft are designed, maintained and operated. The NGS inerting systems are mandatory on all new designs. Not just in the centre tank either. OK it has a Cat D MEL limit which makes you think it's not really necessary, but it's a heavy and expensive sytem. Somehow I don't think it is there just for show.
Critical Design Control Configuration Limitations (CDCCL). SFAR88 etc cost airlines a lot of time and money. Again, not just for show.
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