Hard times for Norwegian
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: uk
Posts: 74
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airlines have contracts with hotel chains to handle their offloaded/delayed pax. Eg BA will pay Hilton £Xm per year to handle their pax world wide so it is a fixed cost for the airline. An offloaded pax literally costs the airline anything as the room has already been pre-paid.
Sorry, but this is just plain wrong. They have contracted rates with individual hotels, fixing the rates IF a room is needed (that usually includes crew accommodation as well, to provide sad hotels with predictable revenue), there is no downpayment. The big hotel chains are just marketing and sales fronts, but except for a few flagship properties the hotels themselves are individual franchise businesses setting prices and conditions themselves.
Last edited by andrasz; 4th Jan 2021 at 12:37.
Pegase Driver
Join Date: May 1997
Location: Europe
Age: 74
Posts: 3,682
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Having watched the YouTube presentation recommended by Zomerkoning (post 1053) about Long Haul and low cost, I'd say Norwegian's future survival will not be well served by long haul 787 operations.
Interesting viewpoint, seemingly well researched, well explained, served to demolish many of my per-conceived notions about airline profitability. A sobering watch.
Good luck to all in Norwegian.
Interesting viewpoint, seemingly well researched, well explained, served to demolish many of my per-conceived notions about airline profitability. A sobering watch.
Good luck to all in Norwegian.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 652
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Even if furloughed the company should still do the validations as part of the employment contract. I can understand paying for a revalidation if made redundant just to preserve the privileges of the licence, but if the company is planning on using the pilots they need to do an OPC in any event and would probably combine this with the LPC.
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Southern Europe
Posts: 318
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Certainly it can be combined, or include, an LPC, IF the rating is still current.
If the rating has lapsed then the company can no longer fix the issue, unless they are also an ATO. Not many airlines are also ATOs. Once the rating has lapsed one as to go to an ATO. Courtesy from EASA.
If the rating has lapsed then the company can no longer fix the issue, unless they are also an ATO. Not many airlines are also ATOs. Once the rating has lapsed one as to go to an ATO. Courtesy from EASA.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 652
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As far as I am aware Norwegian has an ATO (in some part of the complex model) . Airlines would normally not allow rating to lapse in order to avoid the "training as required" rules by EASA. If the Pilots are type rating lapsed either the Airline has given them the bums rush or they have been told it will all be fixed when/if they come back online, in any event there is no need for an "employed pilot" to have to arrange their own revalidation unless they feel the end is nigh and they want to keep current for job seeking purposes, which given the situation at NLH is highly likely. An OPC may be incorporated in an LPC, as you state if the rating is expired then the ATO must determine the training requirements.
Only half a speed-brake
For the unaware, a rating lapsed for no more than 3 months needs, apart from the checkride itself,
- minimum of 0 (zero) re-training (or more as determined by the ATO Head of Training).
That is explicitly spelled out in the relevant paragraph of the regulation. With the normally allowed buffer of 3 months prior to annual expiry, one could go 15 months in between the licence check simulators.
Thus if the yearly validity is expired less than 3 months, there no immediate need to disjoint everything.
Basically, the regulator says: Until the official expiry it's the airline's playground,but in case its lapsed then out of the sandbox and let an independent supervisor decide and handle what needs to be done. The ATO plays an important role, through its internal quality assurance system. No longer TRE friends with pens and friendly inbreeding on the fleet.
Sorry for the technicalities.
- minimum of 0 (zero) re-training (or more as determined by the ATO Head of Training).
That is explicitly spelled out in the relevant paragraph of the regulation. With the normally allowed buffer of 3 months prior to annual expiry, one could go 15 months in between the licence check simulators.
Thus if the yearly validity is expired less than 3 months, there no immediate need to disjoint everything.
Basically, the regulator says: Until the official expiry it's the airline's playground,but in case its lapsed then out of the sandbox and let an independent supervisor decide and handle what needs to be done. The ATO plays an important role, through its internal quality assurance system. No longer TRE friends with pens and friendly inbreeding on the fleet.
Sorry for the technicalities.
Last edited by FlightDetent; 5th Jan 2021 at 22:06.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: USA
Posts: 94
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Got an email from Norwegian saying they are operating loads of routes out of Scandinavia this summer, and also from Helsinki.
What crew will operate these flights? I hope they bring back the crew they laid off.
OSL (81 routes) - https://www.norwegian.no/tilbud/nyttar/
ARN (51 routes) - https://www.norwegian.com/se/erbjudande/nyar/
CPH (41 routes) - https://www.norwegian.com/dk/tilbud/nytar/
HEL (96 routes) - https://www.norwegian.com/fi/tarjouksiin/uuden-vuoden/
What crew will operate these flights? I hope they bring back the crew they laid off.
OSL (81 routes) - https://www.norwegian.no/tilbud/nyttar/
ARN (51 routes) - https://www.norwegian.com/se/erbjudande/nyar/
CPH (41 routes) - https://www.norwegian.com/dk/tilbud/nytar/
HEL (96 routes) - https://www.norwegian.com/fi/tarjouksiin/uuden-vuoden/
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 652
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Reports of some of the LH fleet already being moved back to Shannon. Approx 72 aircraft potentially to be repatriated to the lease companies, although exact figures still to be confirmed.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/retail-and-services/norwegian-air-begins-cutting-its-fleet-ahead-of-restructuring-1.4450975
https://www.aerotime.aero/26878-Norwegian-Air-flies-leased-planes-to-Shannon-airport
All quiet on the Spain court protection, the process was never going to be a quick rubber stamp.
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/retail-and-services/norwegian-air-begins-cutting-its-fleet-ahead-of-restructuring-1.4450975
https://www.aerotime.aero/26878-Norwegian-Air-flies-leased-planes-to-Shannon-airport
AerCap has announced that they are working to sublet the aircraft Norwegian has leased. Now the leasing giant announces that they have also reduced their shareholding in the airline significantly in recent months.
Last edited by Kirks gusset; 6th Jan 2021 at 11:32.
Join Date: Jan 2021
Location: ESP
Posts: 7
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I will say it's a real shame about NOR, from a flight crew/work side perspective they were excellent for improving working conditions. I'm aware of a lot of guys who moved there for the better the conditions, pay and the like. They forced other companies to improve their environment in order to retain crew.
The loss of NOR could help other airlines with new aircraft and crews being available when all this is sorted.
However NOR got themselves into a mess. Buying 737s, and later 787s, with a large number of the optional extras, no real plan of how to use all the ones they bought, and then there's the "better conditions".
The conditions seemed (at least from the outside), to be better pay, better hours, things being given to you rather than the "go get it yourself" that other European LCCs may have. I have heard some NOR guys struggling to get their base training and being paid to wait around for it.
All this added cost, this growth meant the likes of EZY, WZZ, & RYR had a much lower cost base on crew and aircraft.
The money didn't go as far when they earned it, there was no "LCC mentality" to it.
Their long haul dream will need a solid short-haul performance. Even with the MAX returning, this could be difficult.
Truly I wish all the best those at NOR, and I hope management are able to fix all that has happened.
The loss of NOR could help other airlines with new aircraft and crews being available when all this is sorted.
However NOR got themselves into a mess. Buying 737s, and later 787s, with a large number of the optional extras, no real plan of how to use all the ones they bought, and then there's the "better conditions".
The conditions seemed (at least from the outside), to be better pay, better hours, things being given to you rather than the "go get it yourself" that other European LCCs may have. I have heard some NOR guys struggling to get their base training and being paid to wait around for it.
All this added cost, this growth meant the likes of EZY, WZZ, & RYR had a much lower cost base on crew and aircraft.
The money didn't go as far when they earned it, there was no "LCC mentality" to it.
Their long haul dream will need a solid short-haul performance. Even with the MAX returning, this could be difficult.
Truly I wish all the best those at NOR, and I hope management are able to fix all that has happened.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Dublin
Age: 31
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
While I can’t comment on the remuneration of the various bases, I know/knew a good amount of people in Norwegian and they all seemed to really enjoy working there, especially the many who came from Ryanair, the work environment was like chalk and cheese, so that is a pity to see go.
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: where I lay my hat
Posts: 151
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'll give you that, my former colleagues who went there were top guys, so I don't doubt it was a very nice place to work. But that don't pay the bills, so let's not mourn it as a lost stalwart against aviation's declining T&C's, because it wasn't.
Last edited by midnight cruiser; 6th Jan 2021 at 17:50.
I will say it's a real shame about NOR, from a flight crew/work side perspective they were excellent for improving working conditions.
Last edited by Clop_Clop; 6th Jan 2021 at 22:34.
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Planet earth
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I used to work there before I decided to move to a major (to get home).
When I joined just before they began the big expansion, the conditions were not great to be honest. Weird contracts, the whole Thai crew situation and many more things like that really was a departure from what Norwegian had going for it shortly before. The old scandi-contrats from the "K-area" were fantastic.
It was quite a mess for a few years, and unfortunately the stories of a "race to the bottom" type company stuck for quite a while... Some still do as one can tell from the latest few posts. We all know how it goes with the cockpit gossip...
But - Then something happened. Unions were welcomed for all bases (after some tension from the media etc.) and things began to go in the right direction. And pretty fast actually. The salary went up, conditions improved and there was room to grow in the company with openings for training positions and so on. If you liked working extra you could get some pretty good deals in the busy summertime. 2-3K extra per day for a skipper was not unusial at all! Also, most bases had a nice stable 5/4 roster.
Was/is it as good as a US major? No- not even close. But Europe is a different ballgame on all fronts to begin with... That conversation is DOA.
Was/is is as good as a major in Europe? Depends. Better than some, but worse than others. Somewhere in the middle I would say. The upside was fast upgrade and career progression. In any case it has been on par or better than most low cost in Europe.
If you have any financial trouble working for Norwegian in any base - It's definately on you! (pre-covid)
So, renumeration etc. has been somewhere in the middle with regards to the European market for the past 3 years or so... However....
The ethos on the people side has for the most part been great. It has a very scandinavian feel and you are treated like an adult. It's reflected in procedures, the management and the overall atmosphere in the company. It has been a very nice place to work for me at least. Norwegian is by no means perfect, but it has only moved in the right direction!
I honestly think Norwegian is good for European aviation. They now have a new management team with a real sense of responsibility and above all sustainability. No more throwing things at the wall to see if it sticks. The new CEO seems to be highly praised in scandinavia and there seems to be a clear vision of what is possible within the market. If Norwegian goes, we will se the likes of wizzair, RYR and other new players go on the offensive taking up the marketshare with covid as a excuse for poor T&C's. We all know how that story ends...
When I joined just before they began the big expansion, the conditions were not great to be honest. Weird contracts, the whole Thai crew situation and many more things like that really was a departure from what Norwegian had going for it shortly before. The old scandi-contrats from the "K-area" were fantastic.
It was quite a mess for a few years, and unfortunately the stories of a "race to the bottom" type company stuck for quite a while... Some still do as one can tell from the latest few posts. We all know how it goes with the cockpit gossip...
But - Then something happened. Unions were welcomed for all bases (after some tension from the media etc.) and things began to go in the right direction. And pretty fast actually. The salary went up, conditions improved and there was room to grow in the company with openings for training positions and so on. If you liked working extra you could get some pretty good deals in the busy summertime. 2-3K extra per day for a skipper was not unusial at all! Also, most bases had a nice stable 5/4 roster.
Was/is it as good as a US major? No- not even close. But Europe is a different ballgame on all fronts to begin with... That conversation is DOA.
Was/is is as good as a major in Europe? Depends. Better than some, but worse than others. Somewhere in the middle I would say. The upside was fast upgrade and career progression. In any case it has been on par or better than most low cost in Europe.
If you have any financial trouble working for Norwegian in any base - It's definately on you! (pre-covid)
So, renumeration etc. has been somewhere in the middle with regards to the European market for the past 3 years or so... However....
The ethos on the people side has for the most part been great. It has a very scandinavian feel and you are treated like an adult. It's reflected in procedures, the management and the overall atmosphere in the company. It has been a very nice place to work for me at least. Norwegian is by no means perfect, but it has only moved in the right direction!
I honestly think Norwegian is good for European aviation. They now have a new management team with a real sense of responsibility and above all sustainability. No more throwing things at the wall to see if it sticks. The new CEO seems to be highly praised in scandinavia and there seems to be a clear vision of what is possible within the market. If Norwegian goes, we will se the likes of wizzair, RYR and other new players go on the offensive taking up the marketshare with covid as a excuse for poor T&C's. We all know how that story ends...
Interesting to hear. Let's hope they manage to keep going after the restructuring but as you say there will be others more than willing to take over some of the network. More jobs like that are needed in Europe.
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: Spain
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Norwegian Crew Emailed and told LH is finished - heart goes out to all those crews
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,501
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
New business plan today. NO longhaul in Norwegian in the future. 2000 jobs to go.
Short haul down to 50 aircraft this year, increasing to 70 in 2022.
Focus on Scandinavia/Nordic and European routes.
Short haul down to 50 aircraft this year, increasing to 70 in 2022.
Focus on Scandinavia/Nordic and European routes.
Last edited by ManaAdaSystem; 14th Jan 2021 at 08:02.