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Hard times for Norwegian

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Hard times for Norwegian

Old 20th Apr 2020, 23:09
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Originally Posted by Whitemonk Returns
And therein lies the point. As pilots we pride ourselves on our decision making in the aircraft yet refuse to apply the same levels of long term planning to our own careers. Look at the basket case of companies who are dead or on life support right now. NAS, SAA, Virigin? Anyone who couldn't see the writing on the wall pre Covid, during the greatest jobs market over the last 5 years we will likely see for some time, really needs to look in that mirror. I don't rejoice in the difficulties we are all facing and I genuinely wish the best for all our grounded colleagues in the coming months, but shed a tear for NAS? ... I think not.
So you base every decision in your life on probability? NAS was in for the best result in their history, whilst having completely restructured the company in the process for the better with a completely new management. Should you never take a chance with something that is about to turn around? would you do the same with people?

Besides, You are speaking as if everybody in NAS has always had a much better choice? If you are from Norway, Sweden or Denmark - Where else would you go? Who on earth would have been able to compete with the contracts they had in those countries? And is it always better to commute in the name of "just in case"?

I'm sorry, but your comment makes very little sense in the context of living a normal life with other needs than "having a 100% secure job with the best T&C's in the bizz". Besides, I see a lot of hating on Norwegian T&C's? Have you guys actually seen a contract from Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Spain or the UK? Or is it all from the usual twisted "cockpit gossip"?

As RexBanner says, we are all caught with our pants down at the moment. Only question is who get's to sit when the music stops next time?! Wish the best for ALL your colleagues in aviation right now. Behind the eternal talks of T&C's, old grudges and uneducated opinions are real people who are about to experience possibly the biggest personal crisis in their lifetime.

Get ride of the "I'm alright jack" mentality and show some support!
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Old 20th Apr 2020, 23:17
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Originally Posted by SSDK
So you base every decision in your life on probability? NAS was in for the best result in their history, whilst having completely restructured the company in the process for the better with a completely new management. Should you never take a chance with something that is about to turn around? would you do the same with people?

Besides, You are speaking as if everybody in NAS has always had a much better choice? If you are from Norway, Sweden or Denmark - Where else would you go? Who on earth would have been able to compete with the contracts they had in those countries? And is it always better to commute in the name of "just in case"?

I'm sorry, but your comment makes very little sense in the context of living a normal life with other needs than "having a 100% secure job with the best T&C's in the bizz". Besides, I see a lot of hating on Norwegian T&C's? Have you guys actually seen a contract from Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Spain or the UK? Or is it all from the usual twisted "cockpit gossip"?

As RexBanner says, we are all caught with our pants down at the moment. Only question is who get's to sit when the music stops next time?! Wish the best for ALL your colleagues in aviation right now. Behind the eternal talks of T&C's, old grudges and uneducated opinions are real people who are about to experience possibly the biggest personal crisis in their lifetime.

Get ride of the "I'm alright jack" mentality and show some support!
Thank you and very well said. My son is one of the many caught up in this predicament and is now awaiting to hear his fate and his future.
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Old 20th Apr 2020, 23:23
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Originally Posted by SSDK
So you base every decision in your life on probability? NAS was in for the best result in their history, whilst having completely restructured the company in the process for the better with a completely new management. Should you never take a chance with something that is about to turn around? would you do the same with people?

Besides, You are speaking as if everybody in NAS has always had a much better choice? If you are from Norway, Sweden or Denmark - Where else would you go? Who on earth would have been able to compete with the contracts they had in those countries? And is it always better to commute in the name of "just in case"?

I'm sorry, but your comment makes very little sense in the context of living a normal life with other needs than "having a 100% secure job with the best T&C's in the bizz". Besides, I see a lot of hating on Norwegian T&C's? Have you guys actually seen a contract from Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Spain or the UK? Or is it all from the usual twisted "cockpit gossip"?

As RexBanner says, we are all caught with our pants down at the moment. Only question is who get's to sit when the music stops next time?! Wish the best for ALL your colleagues in aviation right now. Behind the eternal talks of T&C's, old grudges and uneducated opinions are real people who are about to experience possibly the biggest personal crisis in their lifetime.

Get ride of the "I'm alright jack" mentality and show some support!
Well the contracts for Denmark, Sweden, Spain and UK might have great TC's, but what good is that, when they can stop them just like they did today, that kind of makes a your statement about the great TC's a mute point.

As for Norwegians overall issues, COVID 19 was the straw that broke the camels back, just like FlyBe, however NAS had massive problems long before the virus hit them. Massive restructure, deferring loan payments, billions in debts, hardly any cash, expanded to fast, NAS have been wounded for a long time. There are threads many years back on NAS problems, this thread was started September 2019, again before COVID 19 occured.

Defend NAS business model, and talk about how great it is, while I am sure there are over 1500 pilots today, who disagree with this sentiment.

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Old 20th Apr 2020, 23:49
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Who on earth said NAS had been doing things well before they chose to try and turn thing around? You won't find anyone who will defend the company structure pre-"FOCUS19" as they called it. However, as I said before, things were changing for the better. Far better. It's never to late to turn things around and for that they deserve some credit.

As far as parts of the company going bust. Norwegian has been running out of money for some time, and as for the countries who still demand 70% or so paid salary during these hard times it was the straw that broke the camels back. What else should the company do? Just lay down and die for the sake of "What's right". At least people are now ironically left with a fighting chance until the 4th of May in the remaining countries before the final decisions will be made on NAS's fate. Many, many companies are build on the fact that there are flexibility to close down parts to save the core-business. It's just how business is done in a globalised world. Now I do not agree with all of the previous ways the company was run, but for me, it is impressive to see the change that has been going on for the last 18months or so. I have many friends in Norwegian (I used to work there myself until I had a chance to go home) and I have always been impressed with how much "can do" spirit there was amongst the crew.

And I actually think those 1500 pilots are able to see the big picture in what's going on. This is the biggest crisis on the aviation job-market since.... Well... forever. If you only direct your anger at the company, you have been paying very little attention to what is going on in the world right now. Even the most robust and stable companies are in full-on damage control mode. Nothing about what we see right now is normal, and not a single person on the planet knows were we are in 2-4-6-8 months. How on earth should any company act right now?

People tend to dwell on the past when it comes to Norwegian whilst completely ignoring were it was headed in terms of both the vision and the actual finances for 2020. It was, and still is a company with great potential and very good people. People who deserve more than the "keyboard warrior" comments on this forum as of lately.

Stay safe and Let's hope we all make it through this after all. Same goes for you "truckflyer".
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 00:21
  #405 (permalink)  
 
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"countries who still demand 70%"
What nonsense is this, this is generally government funding furlough payments, companies can't pay what they don't have, but these now can't even get government help the way the company is structured, with the possible exception of the UK part, which can get up to £2500 before tax and NI, which will equal to £1950 or so a month.

All companies have had to come with offers in these times, but NAS never stood a chance, because they simply don't have the cash to sustain it.

If they had not expanded so fast,and rather gone for steady growth, maybe they would have had more cash in the bank, however that is still a problem, and will be a problem again tomorrow and the next day for Norwegian, who now risk becoming a regional airline mostly doing European short haul. 2/3's of the company is gone at the moment.

However if you not employed by the airline, not even being union member can help you in situation like now, divide and conquer. As a professional I call it for what it is, an absolute disgrace, and I feel sorry for all the crews and great sympathy who in many ways was forced over to OSM without any choice of their own a few years back, and who now have suffered this terrible blow.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 05:56
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Originally Posted by truckflyer
"countries who still demand 70%"
What nonsense is this, this is generally government funding furlough payments, companies can't pay what they don't have, but these now can't even get government help the way the company is structured, with the possible exception of the UK part, which can get up to £2500 before tax and NI, which will equal to £1950 or so a month.

All companies have had to come with offers in these times, but NAS never stood a chance, because they simply don't have the cash to sustain it.

If they had not expanded so fast,and rather gone for steady growth, maybe they would have had more cash in the bank, however that is still a problem, and will be a problem again tomorrow and the next day for Norwegian, who now risk becoming a regional airline mostly doing European short haul. 2/3's of the company is gone at the moment.

However if you not employed by the airline, not even being union member can help you in situation like now, divide and conquer. As a professional I call it for what it is, an absolute disgrace, and I feel sorry for all the crews and great sympathy who in many ways was forced over to OSM without any choice of their own a few years back, and who now have suffered this terrible blow.
Thanks captain hindsight. If you really feel sorry for All the Crew will you just shut up about how it's Norwegian's own fault and that the remaining airline will go under soon and what not?
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 06:09
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Originally Posted by truckflyer
"countries who still demand 70%"
What nonsense is this, this is generally government funding furlough payments, companies can't pay what they don't have, but these now can't even get government help the way the company is structured, with the possible exception of the UK part, which can get up to £2500 before tax and NI, which will equal to £1950 or so a month.

All companies have had to come with offers in these times, but NAS never stood a chance, because they simply don't have the cash to sustain it.

If they had not expanded so fast,and rather gone for steady growth, maybe they would have had more cash in the bank, however that is still a problem, and will be a problem again tomorrow and the next day for Norwegian, who now risk becoming a regional airline mostly doing European short haul. 2/3's of the company is gone at the moment.

However if you not employed by the airline, not even being union member can help you in situation like now, divide and conquer. As a professional I call it for what it is, an absolute disgrace, and I feel sorry for all the crews and great sympathy who in many ways was forced over to OSM without any choice of their own a few years back, and who now have suffered this terrible blow.
Whats wrong with this statement? Absolutely nothing.
Again, I feel desperately sorry for the crews but they were on their way out before COVID 19.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 07:07
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Of course no one could predict Covid 19 but those of you painting NAS as some white Knight on the road to recovery are way off. This company has failed because of the unsustainable amount of DEBT it used to compete with its rivals, competitors that would be sitting on much stronger balance sheets right now if it hadn't had to deal with Norweigen flying people around the world AT A LOSS for the last few years. I gather the 737 contract was well paid but I know the 787 one was not and it has been well documented on here, I know two individuals who left NAS who get paid more now to fly a 737 to the canaries than a 787 around the world, significantly more now in fact! If everyone wasn't rushing to get there Instagram photo of them on a shiny new 787 nobody would PAY 30,000 euro to accept that contract (and I know they paid it to you back over time, how nice of them!) It's like the guys in the Wizz Air thread defending the company for not paying day off payments but are happy to deduct you a day's pay for going sick, but the girls are so pretty... Unbelievable. Once the good times come again, and they will, all those airplanes are going to need flying, remember the companies that deserve your hard work.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 08:52
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Well said. It’s important to note that you can be very sympathetic towards the plight of Norwegian employees and wish them all the best, but at the same time be pretty scathing about the business plans and general health of the company. It is an unfortunate truism that many airlines from history ran into trouble during an over-ambitious expansion phase coupled with market uncertainty.

It reminds me of the old saying attributed to head-in-the-clouds management from the .com bust era: “we lose on every sale but we’ll make it up in volume!!”, which fairly describes NAXs modus operandi in the last couple of years.

We are seeing an unprecedented fall in the demand for air travel with no real clear indication of what form/timing an eventual recovery will take. Even the strongest, cash-richest airlines are finding it extremely difficult. There is bound to be fallout/consolidation and unconditional support for failing businesses only increases the burden on other ones. Is there a future for some parts of Norwegian? I hope so but the LH bit of the operation as presented never really made commercial sense to me.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 09:05
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Originally Posted by Whitemonk Returns
And therein lies the point. As pilots we pride ourselves on our decision making in the aircraft yet refuse to apply the same levels of long term planning to our own careers. Look at the basket case of companies who are dead or on life support right now. NAS, SAA, Virigin? Anyone who couldn't see the writing on the wall pre Covid, during the greatest jobs market over the last 5 years we will likely see for some time, really needs to look in that mirror. I don't rejoice in the difficulties we are all facing and I genuinely wish the best for all our grounded colleagues in the coming months, but shed a tear for NAS? ... I think not.
Good points Whitemonk! I cannot see any Government funded packages being available to NAS in UK or Ireland.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 11:51
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Keyboard warriors the lot of you.

theres no point banging in about business models or if it’s ethical to be employed on contracts - everyone knows what they sign and I’m always pragmatic about these things.

I turn up fly, do my best, go home. It’s not a religion, it’s not the reason I breath. It’s a job - if a better one comes I go, if they don’t need me anymore I go.

Even the strongest financial airlines aren’t exactly happy flappy with their employees are they ? Witness the land grab of previously agreed TCs at easy and I wouldn’t want to be way down the seniority at even big airways right now .

be nice for a bit of support and unity - but no, pilots are always self serving ego driven people at best .
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 14:34
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Originally Posted by Meester proach
Keyboard warriors the lot of you.

theres no point banging in about business models or if it’s ethical to be employed on contracts - everyone knows what they sign and I’m always pragmatic about these things.

I turn up fly, do my best, go home. It’s not a religion, it’s not the reason I breath. It’s a job - if a better one comes I go, if they don’t need me anymore I go.

Even the strongest financial airlines aren’t exactly happy flappy with their employees are they ? Witness the land grab of previously agreed TCs at easy and I wouldn’t want to be way down the seniority at even big airways right now .

be nice for a bit of support and unity - but no, pilots are always self serving ego driven people at best .
No completely correct, some years ago many was forced onto these contracts, that's why Norwegian Core in Norway went on strike for a few weeks.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 16:20
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Madrid, 21 de abril de 2020.



Norwegian Air Shuttle anunció ayer, de manera repentina y sin previo aviso a los representantes de los trabajadores, el cierre de las bases que la aerolínea escandinava tiene en España. Según han informado varios medios de comunicación, los pilotos que trabajan para Norwegian en España podrían ser despedidos, aunque aún no se ha anunciado ningún procedimiento legal al respecto, por lo que se desconoce la situación legal en la que quedan los trabajadores y de qué forma se les compensaría.

El anuncio del cierre de estas bases deja en un absoluto desamparo jurídico a los trabajadores de Norwegian, a quienes aún no se ha notificado la noticia a través de los cauces oficiales, por lo que desconocen en este momento qué derechos les amparan para hacer frente a esta situación. De hecho, Sepla estaba negociando con Norwegian un ERTE por causas objetivas, con el fin de buscar una solución de viabilidad a la empresa.

El anuncio de la matriz de cerrar sus bases en España, al mismo tiempo que aquí se estaba negociando otra solución para los trabajadores en nuestro país, es un síntoma más de la absoluta descoordinación e incluso incompatibilidad de políticas empresariales que en ocasiones existe entre una matriz y sus filiales, y cuyas consecuencias directas las sufren los trabajadores.

“Norwegian ha estado ocultando información desde el principio. Esta situación viene de mucho antes de que se cancelaran los vuelos por el coronavirus. Han estado negociando con nosotros un ERTE a pesar de que sabían desde hace tiempo que iban a cerrar -lamentan desde la Sección Sindical de Norwegian-. Además, tampoco han respetado las formas. Un cierre empresarial conlleva una serie de procedimientos legales en cuanto a notificación y argumentación de la necesidad de la medida. Norwegian no ha cumplido ni uno solo de ellos”.

Sepla se reserva el derecho de demandar a la aerolínea noruega ante cualquier jurisdicción.

In other words, looks like the Spanish Unions will start legal action against NAS. That's not too attractive to potential investors.. Live by the sword etc etc
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 16:41
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Spot on, Meester proach. Where years ago the competition was restricted to the commercial departments and crews would actually help each other. It didn’t matter what colour your jet had, if you could help a fellow aviator then that is what you did.

Nowadays the competition is between pilots. Let’s call for push and start, even though we are not 100% ready but at least we get away before xyz. It is pathetic, you never know where life takes you and what may have been your worst enemy at the start of the month could be your colleague at the end of the month.

Same as you, I go to work and do my job. The commercial department can fight over passengers, it has nothing to do with my daily running of the show.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 17:03
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Originally Posted by CEJM
Spot on, Meester proach. Where years ago the competition was restricted to the commercial departments and crews would actually help each other.
[...]
Nowadays the competition is between pilots.
While I understand and agree with your post, lets be honest, times have changed.

Pilots are in competition with eachother. Job security is lower than ever and when applying somewhere, there is always some other pilot willing to do the job for less or even is willing to pay for the job. And even when not applying, this behaviour is hurting other pilots' pay.

Even within companies there are more and more courtcases to gain something at expense of the rest.

Life itself is more selfish and therefore more competitive.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 17:15
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Originally Posted by CEJM
Same as you, I go to work and do my job. The commercial department can fight over passengers, it has nothing to do with my daily running of the show.
Unfortunately, it affects whether you have a job and what it’s like in the future. Norwegian competing with IAG on North American routes by loss-leading pricing led to the formation of Level. Using larger, cheaper aeroplanes their raison-d'etre was to thwart/kill Norwegian LH and it looks like it was very successful. Hasn’t done much for the T&Cs of the airlines directly involved and it puts pressure on others to follow the downward spiral...
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 19:12
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^^^^^
No the problems NAS have had were intially caused more by Boeing and rolls Royce causing massive sub charter and diluting the product badly. No one wants a wamos 330 turning up when they expected the IFE of 787.

As for level ,I never really saw them as competition because they weren’t on many routes we did .....IAG more so, hence the shoehorning of another seat on the back row of the Gatwick 777s....but that’s for the commercial department - we are all pilots and have more in common than petty tribal rivalry
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 21:46
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Originally Posted by Whitemonk Returns
Of course no one could predict Covid 19 but those of you painting NAS as some white Knight on the road to recovery are way off. This company has failed because of the unsustainable amount of DEBT it used to compete with its rivals, competitors that would be sitting on much stronger balance sheets right now if it hadn't had to deal with Norweigen flying people around the world AT A LOSS for the last few years. I gather the 737 contract was well paid but I know the 787 one was not and it has been well documented on here, I know two individuals who left NAS who get paid more now to fly a 737 to the canaries than a 787 around the world, significantly more now in fact! If everyone wasn't rushing to get there Instagram photo of them on a shiny new 787 nobody would PAY 30,000 euro to accept that contract (and I know they paid it to you back over time, how nice of them!) It's like the guys in the Wizz Air thread defending the company for not paying day off payments but are happy to deduct you a day's pay for going sick, but the girls are so pretty... Unbelievable. Once the good times come again, and they will, all those airplanes are going to need flying, remember the companies that deserve your hard work.
​​​​​​It's a bonding, maybe you need to be clarified on what that means? Either you got the Bank guarantee or paid up front and got back all the money. What's your Problem about that exactly? How can you denounce hundreds and thousands of good pilots who flew or still fly for norwegian by saying they did it for the instagram pics? And don’t even get me started to on the t&c, because they were quite good. But clearly you got no clue. I am actually shocked on how you talk about a lot of people you don't even know.
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Old 21st Apr 2020, 21:55
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The Crew who lost their job was not employed by the airline, that is the disgrace in this business model, and what NAS Norwegian pilots was fighting so hard for in their strike few years back.

This makes it easy for the company to cut all ties with the pilots, and they can save millions by screwing their crews.
Any pilot with self respect will call it for what it is, it does not mean I am blaming the crews working for these "shxt" agency companies, they have my greatest sympathy, some here speak about the great TC's provided, and I fully understand this, but what good is it if you can be cut loose this way, it's a rotten system, and I have little sympathy for the way the company has been operated and how they have let down the people working for them.
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Old 22nd Apr 2020, 06:35
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Of course, no one can defend atypical employment practices but you have to reason a little and try to understand why they have emerged.

There are probably more airlines in Europe that now operate an atypical employment structure than not. And with the recycling of the aviation industry that's about to take place, I can see every single new player doing the same. Primera, Norwegian and SAIL all have had the same agency based employment structures. SmartLynx, Avion, Small Planet all have been hiring and paying offshore through agencies for years. What pattern do you see here? None of the above are British companies but still want/wanted to do business out of here. Agency based employees are an easy, risk-free option for them. The alternative is for them to open their own HR departments in each of the countries they operate in (impractical). To open a local HR department, you need to launch a local subsidiary company (SmartLynx UK, Smarlynx France, Smartlynx Germany). In the case of some of these airlines they would need to open 20! What difference does it make though? The terms will still be ****.

The real question is this (and it probably applies to most Western European countries)...

When was the last time a UK registered, wholly based and HQd company launched an airline in the UK? You'd have to go back a long time if I'm not mistaken! No business person with a brain would spend their fortune launching an airline out of a Western European country. Big Europe has made it impossible for Western European airlines to compete with The Latvians, Estonians, Lithuanians and Polish. Even The Vikings can undercut us thanks to their pent up billions and easy finance on tap. So much demand out of the UK over the last decade yet not a single sizable and meaningful 100% UK based operator has emerged to plug that gap, it's always a foreign player. This is the real issue. Big Europe and the undercutting of our businesses and livelihoods.

Last edited by Superpilot; 22nd Apr 2020 at 06:46.
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