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Hard times for Norwegian

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Hard times for Norwegian

Old 23rd May 2020, 00:10
  #681 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Location: MADRID
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Originally Posted by 737lpa View Post
SEPLA is not "trying". They´re actually taking action and following the legal course. The mediation is just a legal requirement in order for them to go to court and nobody expected anything from that 20 minute meeting. This is not about the company having "spare cash to be cute". This is about norwegian following the law as any other airline is, and not getting rid of crews as if they were used toners.

Of course no court action would be taking place if the "company had being doing well". Because until now, the company had been behaving iaw the law. But now that they have "abandoned" their crews in Spain as if they didn´t know them, is when that behaviour can be challenged in court. And not before.

Lastly, this is not about crews going thru "denial of their fate". This is about defending their rights and following the law. And the law in Spain states for procedures and financial compensation when getting rid of permanent employees. Again, like any other enterprise, whether an airline or a beauty salon.

And of course norwegian has assets. And cash as well. How in the world would they be alive otherwise...

This is not about being an "inconvenient pain in the arse". This is about norwegian taking social responsibility, it´s about respect and protection to their staff that has been supporting their business for years, and for them to play a fair game like any other carrier in the civilised world. And trust me, this will be achieved for the good of everyone, and most particularly for norwegian itself. Just give it some time.
No point fighting with the rocket-sofa-pilots who love to see others get screwed by the comment "denial of their fate" as if it was enjoying writing that... probably he can't get much joy of life anyways. PPRuNe is full of these ones!
We will stay on course in life and keep our head high! Still a lot of water to run under the bridge...very old saying and very true.
737Driv3r is offline  
Old 23rd May 2020, 12:52
  #682 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 498
Firstly, no-one likes to see fellow pilots screwed, it that's what you think you are in the wrong forum, even given the current pressures.

The phrase "denial of their fate" did not refer just to NAS Crews..

Of course no court action would be taking place if the "company had being doing well". Because until now, the company had been behaving iaw the law. But now that they have "abandoned" their crews in Spain as if they didn´t know them, is when that behaviour can be challenged in court. And not before.
Sorry, this is nonsense, if the crew transfer were illegal, they were illegal even if the company had not abandoned anyone, bit like saying i'm not a convict until I get caught.. complete rubbish. The problem with this "action" by SELPA it has only been taken now the crews are abandoned, it could have been taken before and negotiated, but in reality, no-one wants to bite the hand that feeds them.

NAS played a very shady game by galvanising the pilots with the Red Nose Warriors, making them feel part of the mother ship then in a callous and premeditated manner cut them free keeping only the home bases. The Pilots woke up to a nasty smell and then started to think about compensation etc etc.

And of course norwegian has assets. And cash as well. How in the world would they be alive otherwise...
No, it hasn't got a pot to pi** in, the assets have all been taken over by the shareholders.

Norwegian will still need to collaborate closely with a number of creditors as the Company currently has limited revenues.” "
they simply don't have the funds to pay millions in settlements.

In the UK we support the Spanish crews, some are even ex colleagues, but the UK pilots and BALPA realise that the only income the crews will get here is the furlough scheme and that is fading out, leaving hundreds of staff without jobs and just state aid. The SELPA action relies on the premise that the crews were in fact NAS employees and as NAS is still "active" although in a coma, that that they are entitled to the legal severances under Spanish Law. The NAS lawyers have basically said go row your own boat, now it's up to the courts to decide.

Lets suppose the court rules in favour of SELPA, the initial transfer of crews was illegal etc etc, and the crews were de facto employees of NAS.. then what? blood from a stone?
The fear of upsetting NAS should be banished from the minds of SELPA, stop using phrases like "our beloved company" , is this the same company that squatted on them from a great height? ,encourage other unions to support the cause and make the NAS operation in Spain impossible unless they do the honourable thing and recognise that as a majority shareholder in NAR ES that they were the "controlling mind" and had the associated financial responsibility.

Sadly, any victory may be hollow ifs the banks predict, NAS will fold or be taken over, in which case all bets are off.

Lastly, apologies to any Spanish crews that though I was getting pleasure from their predicament, this is not the case, I get 2 or 3 emails a day asking about 777 and 787 LPCs and recurrent and my feelings go out to the guys depending on these jobs to pay the bills.

Perhaps as a "goodwill" gesture NAS could keep everyone validated FOC?

Kirks gusset is offline  
Old 23rd May 2020, 13:46
  #683 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Earth
Posts: 89
Kirks,

It´s SEPLA, not SELPA.

if the crew transfer were illegal, they were illegal even if the company had not abandoned anyone
WRONG. You can have subsidiares take care of certain things like payroll, local arrangements, etc..., but as long as you don´t have production (like it´s the case with NAR ES), then the mother company is liable for their employees, and that includes compensation for redundancies. As a matter of fact, the creation of NAR ES back in 2017 was precisely to comply with a previous sentence in Spain where OSM and other arrangements for cabin crew (Adecco) were found to be illegal by a labour court.

The Pilots woke up to a nasty smell and then started to think about compensation etc etc.
We don´t think of compensation now as a result of this situation. A permanent employee in Spain is ALWAYS entitled to compensation when made redundant.

No, it hasn't got a pot to pi** in, the assets have all been taken over by the shareholders.
That statement is so absurd that I won´t even bother...

they simply don't have the funds to pay millions in settlements.
If you don´t have the money for the settlements then you can either file for bankruptcy of the whole group (like many airlines unfortunately have done) or keep everyone furloughed until production resumes. Furthermore, you can meet with union representatives and try to negotiate somewhere in the middle to survive the storm, ie. we can´t pay you know, but you can stay in the government subsidised scheme while we arrange our finances and get back to business later on. Meanwhile, you´re still part of the team, let us do free extensions on your licenses, keep your ID, uniform and corporate email and let´s see where everything goes. That´s what a socially responsible enterprise does with their staff.

What you cannot do in any case is disappear like nothing happened, disconnect your staff from intranet as if they´re no longer your problem, let all their ratings expire and on top of that ask them to reapply for their jobs wishing them good luck for the future.

but the UK pilots and BALPA realise that the only income the crews will get here is the furlough scheme
In case you´re not up to speed with what´s going on, please read below how BALPA is coming along the ride to protect their jobs along with SEPLA and how, apart from some brownNoseWarriors, staff in the UK is equally worried about norwegian´s social practices:




Sadly, any victory may be hollow ifs the banks predict, NAS will fold or be taken over, in which case all bets are off.
If NAS gets taken over, it gets taken over with its assets, debts and staff obligations like any other company. Indeed, you can actually say that it has been taken over already by lessors and bondholders.

If NAS folds completely it definitely won´t be because of their crews not doing their job, and I seriously doubt they will collapse at this point. Crews from Spain or anywhere in the network are not looking for the company to go bust. We´re just looking for the company to be responsible and to follow the law.

I don´t think it´s so hard to understand and, as you say, the courts will decide.

Last edited by 737lpa; 23rd May 2020 at 14:04.
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Old 23rd May 2020, 14:03
  #684 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Ilmington, Warwickshire
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It looks like Spain is planning on opening up again to international tourism from July. There is a heavy Scandinavian presence in Spain and the NAS flights from the Nordic countries were always pretty full. I hope Norwegian’s new owners recognise that unless they get their act together soon and wake up from their hibernation, this business will be snatched from under their ‘Red Noses’ or by the time they wake up next spring, all the rich pickings will be gone.
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Old 24th May 2020, 06:23
  #685 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Originally Posted by BehindBlueEyes View Post
It looks like Spain is planning on opening up again to international tourism from July. There is a heavy Scandinavian presence in Spain and the NAS flights from the Nordic countries were always pretty full. I hope Norwegian’s new owners recognise that unless they get their act together soon and wake up from their hibernation, this business will be snatched from under their ‘Red Noses’ or by the time they wake up next spring, all the rich pickings will be gone.
Yeah, maybe not.
I don't think a whole lot of tourists are willing to hop on a plane to Spain as long as they have 2 weeks of quarantine to look forward to upon return to Scandiland.
Do you?
tprop is offline  
Old 24th May 2020, 07:43
  #686 (permalink)  
c52
 
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I imagine that for some people, the life they've adopted during lockdown is pretty indistinguishable from quarantine, so maybe a fair number. No exercise, groceries delivered, WFH.
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Old 24th May 2020, 09:13
  #687 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Cook Island
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From skift article

https://skift.com/2020/05/20/covids-...JbZToktaHWCi5c

“Norwegian is Exhibit A for this sort of reset. Pre-crisis, it was already undertaking major reforms, enabling it to escape 2019 alive. Barely. But even its boldest steps left big questions about whether it could ever achieve success. Then the crisis came, and Norwegian was suddenly in a position to access government loan support, subject to extreme reforms. The result: Pain for all stakeholders, but also a “New Norwegian” with a business model much more likely to succeed than anything achievable pre-crisis. It’s now a less complex airline, with vastly lower costs and greater operating flexibility. Before, Norwegian was a broken airline in a world of robust demand. Now demand is much lower, but the airline is much leaner”
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Old 24th May 2020, 10:22
  #688 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Kopavogur
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Originally Posted by tprop View Post
Yeah, maybe not.
I don't think a whole lot of tourists are willing to hop on a plane to Spain as long as they have 2 weeks of quarantine to look forward to upon return to Scandiland.
Do you?
what are you talking about? There will not be any quarantine upon return.
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Old 24th May 2020, 11:59
  #689 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Europe
Age: 41
Posts: 589
Oh the Scandi's will flock alright. And so will the Brits, even if they (because the Scandi's are not) are required to quarantine afterwards. The Dutch will, as will the Belgians, and as soon as the Germans can reapply their summerly claim on Mallorca being the 17th Bundesland, they will bloody well take advantage of it.

Not in the numbers of last year, obviously, but certainly enough to motivate airlines who are quick of foot to get their wares in the airs. But, and you may safely store this for later ridicule shall I be proven wrong, I predict the mother of all rebounds to take place in the North-to-Beach flying business in July, August and September.

Keeping your staff on a friendly, if temporarily financial distant, footing would seem like a prudent and business conducive measure.
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Old 24th May 2020, 13:03
  #690 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
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Originally Posted by Icelanta View Post
what are you talking about? There will not be any quarantine upon return.
Don't know about "Scandis", which by the way is as meaningless as "Europeans", but return to Norway and yes, 10 days quarantine.
Per
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