Hard times for Norwegian
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 652
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Firstly, no-one likes to see fellow pilots screwed, it that's what you think you are in the wrong forum, even given the current pressures.
The phrase "denial of their fate" did not refer just to NAS Crews..
Sorry, this is nonsense, if the crew transfer were illegal, they were illegal even if the company had not abandoned anyone, bit like saying i'm not a convict until I get caught.. complete rubbish. The problem with this "action" by SELPA it has only been taken now the crews are abandoned, it could have been taken before and negotiated, but in reality, no-one wants to bite the hand that feeds them.
NAS played a very shady game by galvanising the pilots with the Red Nose Warriors, making them feel part of the mother ship then in a callous and premeditated manner cut them free keeping only the home bases. The Pilots woke up to a nasty smell and then started to think about compensation etc etc.
No, it hasn't got a pot to pi** in, the assets have all been taken over by the shareholders.
they simply don't have the funds to pay millions in settlements.
In the UK we support the Spanish crews, some are even ex colleagues, but the UK pilots and BALPA realise that the only income the crews will get here is the furlough scheme and that is fading out, leaving hundreds of staff without jobs and just state aid. The SELPA action relies on the premise that the crews were in fact NAS employees and as NAS is still "active" although in a coma, that that they are entitled to the legal severances under Spanish Law. The NAS lawyers have basically said go row your own boat, now it's up to the courts to decide.
Lets suppose the court rules in favour of SELPA, the initial transfer of crews was illegal etc etc, and the crews were de facto employees of NAS.. then what? blood from a stone?
The fear of upsetting NAS should be banished from the minds of SELPA, stop using phrases like "our beloved company" , is this the same company that squatted on them from a great height? ,encourage other unions to support the cause and make the NAS operation in Spain impossible unless they do the honourable thing and recognise that as a majority shareholder in NAR ES that they were the "controlling mind" and had the associated financial responsibility.
Sadly, any victory may be hollow ifs the banks predict, NAS will fold or be taken over, in which case all bets are off.
Lastly, apologies to any Spanish crews that though I was getting pleasure from their predicament, this is not the case, I get 2 or 3 emails a day asking about 777 and 787 LPCs and recurrent and my feelings go out to the guys depending on these jobs to pay the bills.
Perhaps as a "goodwill" gesture NAS could keep everyone validated FOC?
The phrase "denial of their fate" did not refer just to NAS Crews..
Of course no court action would be taking place if the "company had being doing well". Because until now, the company had been behaving iaw the law. But now that they have "abandoned" their crews in Spain as if they didn´t know them, is when that behaviour can be challenged in court. And not before.
NAS played a very shady game by galvanising the pilots with the Red Nose Warriors, making them feel part of the mother ship then in a callous and premeditated manner cut them free keeping only the home bases. The Pilots woke up to a nasty smell and then started to think about compensation etc etc.
And of course norwegian has assets. And cash as well. How in the world would they be alive otherwise...
Norwegian will still need to collaborate closely with a number of creditors as the Company currently has limited revenues.” "
In the UK we support the Spanish crews, some are even ex colleagues, but the UK pilots and BALPA realise that the only income the crews will get here is the furlough scheme and that is fading out, leaving hundreds of staff without jobs and just state aid. The SELPA action relies on the premise that the crews were in fact NAS employees and as NAS is still "active" although in a coma, that that they are entitled to the legal severances under Spanish Law. The NAS lawyers have basically said go row your own boat, now it's up to the courts to decide.
Lets suppose the court rules in favour of SELPA, the initial transfer of crews was illegal etc etc, and the crews were de facto employees of NAS.. then what? blood from a stone?
The fear of upsetting NAS should be banished from the minds of SELPA, stop using phrases like "our beloved company" , is this the same company that squatted on them from a great height? ,encourage other unions to support the cause and make the NAS operation in Spain impossible unless they do the honourable thing and recognise that as a majority shareholder in NAR ES that they were the "controlling mind" and had the associated financial responsibility.
Sadly, any victory may be hollow ifs the banks predict, NAS will fold or be taken over, in which case all bets are off.
Lastly, apologies to any Spanish crews that though I was getting pleasure from their predicament, this is not the case, I get 2 or 3 emails a day asking about 777 and 787 LPCs and recurrent and my feelings go out to the guys depending on these jobs to pay the bills.
Perhaps as a "goodwill" gesture NAS could keep everyone validated FOC?
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Earth
Posts: 91
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Kirks,
It´s SEPLA, not SELPA.
WRONG. You can have subsidiares take care of certain things like payroll, local arrangements, etc..., but as long as you don´t have production (like it´s the case with NAR ES), then the mother company is liable for their employees, and that includes compensation for redundancies. As a matter of fact, the creation of NAR ES back in 2017 was precisely to comply with a previous sentence in Spain where OSM and other arrangements for cabin crew (Adecco) were found to be illegal by a labour court.
We don´t think of compensation now as a result of this situation. A permanent employee in Spain is ALWAYS entitled to compensation when made redundant.
That statement is so absurd that I won´t even bother...
If you don´t have the money for the settlements then you can either file for bankruptcy of the whole group (like many airlines unfortunately have done) or keep everyone furloughed until production resumes. Furthermore, you can meet with union representatives and try to negotiate somewhere in the middle to survive the storm, ie. we can´t pay you know, but you can stay in the government subsidised scheme while we arrange our finances and get back to business later on. Meanwhile, you´re still part of the team, let us do free extensions on your licenses, keep your ID, uniform and corporate email and let´s see where everything goes. That´s what a socially responsible enterprise does with their staff.
What you cannot do in any case is disappear like nothing happened, disconnect your staff from intranet as if they´re no longer your problem, let all their ratings expire and on top of that ask them to reapply for their jobs wishing them good luck for the future.
In case you´re not up to speed with what´s going on, please read below how BALPA is coming along the ride to protect their jobs along with SEPLA and how, apart from some brownNoseWarriors, staff in the UK is equally worried about norwegian´s social practices:
If NAS gets taken over, it gets taken over with its assets, debts and staff obligations like any other company. Indeed, you can actually say that it has been taken over already by lessors and bondholders.
If NAS folds completely it definitely won´t be because of their crews not doing their job, and I seriously doubt they will collapse at this point. Crews from Spain or anywhere in the network are not looking for the company to go bust. We´re just looking for the company to be responsible and to follow the law.
I don´t think it´s so hard to understand and, as you say, the courts will decide.
It´s SEPLA, not SELPA.
if the crew transfer were illegal, they were illegal even if the company had not abandoned anyone
The Pilots woke up to a nasty smell and then started to think about compensation etc etc.
No, it hasn't got a pot to pi** in, the assets have all been taken over by the shareholders.
they simply don't have the funds to pay millions in settlements.
What you cannot do in any case is disappear like nothing happened, disconnect your staff from intranet as if they´re no longer your problem, let all their ratings expire and on top of that ask them to reapply for their jobs wishing them good luck for the future.
but the UK pilots and BALPA realise that the only income the crews will get here is the furlough scheme
Sadly, any victory may be hollow ifs the banks predict, NAS will fold or be taken over, in which case all bets are off.
If NAS folds completely it definitely won´t be because of their crews not doing their job, and I seriously doubt they will collapse at this point. Crews from Spain or anywhere in the network are not looking for the company to go bust. We´re just looking for the company to be responsible and to follow the law.
I don´t think it´s so hard to understand and, as you say, the courts will decide.
Last edited by 737lpa; 23rd May 2020 at 14:04.
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Ilmington, Warwickshire
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It looks like Spain is planning on opening up again to international tourism from July. There is a heavy Scandinavian presence in Spain and the NAS flights from the Nordic countries were always pretty full. I hope Norwegian’s new owners recognise that unless they get their act together soon and wake up from their hibernation, this business will be snatched from under their ‘Red Noses’ or by the time they wake up next spring, all the rich pickings will be gone.
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: europe
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yeah, maybe not.
I don't think a whole lot of tourists are willing to hop on a plane to Spain as long as they have 2 weeks of quarantine to look forward to upon return to Scandiland.
Do you?
I don't think a whole lot of tourists are willing to hop on a plane to Spain as long as they have 2 weeks of quarantine to look forward to upon return to Scandiland.
Do you?
I imagine that for some people, the life they've adopted during lockdown is pretty indistinguishable from quarantine, so maybe a fair number. No exercise, groceries delivered, WFH.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Cook Island
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From skift article
https://skift.com/2020/05/20/covids-...JbZToktaHWCi5c
“Norwegian is Exhibit A for this sort of reset. Pre-crisis, it was already undertaking major reforms, enabling it to escape 2019 alive. Barely. But even its boldest steps left big questions about whether it could ever achieve success. Then the crisis came, and Norwegian was suddenly in a position to access government loan support, subject to extreme reforms. The result: Pain for all stakeholders, but also a “New Norwegian” with a business model much more likely to succeed than anything achievable pre-crisis. It’s now a less complex airline, with vastly lower costs and greater operating flexibility. Before, Norwegian was a broken airline in a world of robust demand. Now demand is much lower, but the airline is much leaner”
https://skift.com/2020/05/20/covids-...JbZToktaHWCi5c
“Norwegian is Exhibit A for this sort of reset. Pre-crisis, it was already undertaking major reforms, enabling it to escape 2019 alive. Barely. But even its boldest steps left big questions about whether it could ever achieve success. Then the crisis came, and Norwegian was suddenly in a position to access government loan support, subject to extreme reforms. The result: Pain for all stakeholders, but also a “New Norwegian” with a business model much more likely to succeed than anything achievable pre-crisis. It’s now a less complex airline, with vastly lower costs and greater operating flexibility. Before, Norwegian was a broken airline in a world of robust demand. Now demand is much lower, but the airline is much leaner”
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Kopavogur
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh the Scandi's will flock alright. And so will the Brits, even if they (because the Scandi's are not) are required to quarantine afterwards. The Dutch will, as will the Belgians, and as soon as the Germans can reapply their summerly claim on Mallorca being the 17th Bundesland, they will bloody well take advantage of it.
Not in the numbers of last year, obviously, but certainly enough to motivate airlines who are quick of foot to get their wares in the airs. But, and you may safely store this for later ridicule shall I be proven wrong, I predict the mother of all rebounds to take place in the North-to-Beach flying business in July, August and September.
Keeping your staff on a friendly, if temporarily financial distant, footing would seem like a prudent and business conducive measure.
Not in the numbers of last year, obviously, but certainly enough to motivate airlines who are quick of foot to get their wares in the airs. But, and you may safely store this for later ridicule shall I be proven wrong, I predict the mother of all rebounds to take place in the North-to-Beach flying business in July, August and September.
Keeping your staff on a friendly, if temporarily financial distant, footing would seem like a prudent and business conducive measure.
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Ilmington, Warwickshire
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Ireland
Posts: 216
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Norwegian press have had interviews with some of the small time buyers and they are dreaming of the share price again rising to the 300 Nkr it was not long ago, if they just hold out for a few years. Not at all thinking about that that would price Norwegian at 9 times the value of Ryanair.
A huge number of Norwegians are extremely supportive of "Norwegian" and extremely worried about a new SAS monopoly.
Might be a reason why small time investors buys shares.
Per
Might be a reason why small time investors buys shares.
Per
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 652
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No one likes a monopoly! Of course the larger shareholders had no say in the matter..
Many reported share dealings today were sales via investment companies outside of the stock exchange, the analysts are suggesting shareholders hang on but of course some larger shareholders may just want some cash at any price. Selling largish blocks will drive the price down, on the other hand, the available shares may be distributed among more potential holders and prices may rise. Closed down about 9% today.
Problem with OFF BOOK trading is no one knows who owns what !
Many reported share dealings today were sales via investment companies outside of the stock exchange, the analysts are suggesting shareholders hang on but of course some larger shareholders may just want some cash at any price. Selling largish blocks will drive the price down, on the other hand, the available shares may be distributed among more potential holders and prices may rise. Closed down about 9% today.
Problem with OFF BOOK trading is no one knows who owns what !
Join Date: May 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,904
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Then they would have to reemploy people and reengage the millions of agencies they partner with. Such a fragmented and complex approach to employment only works when you have economies of scale.
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 652
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This sums it up:"Meanwhile, Norwegian Air Shuttle (OL:NWC), which has only just fended off bankruptcy with a state-backed loan after a series of recapitalizations and debt restructurings, fell 7.4% after its first-quarter results were every bit as bad as feared, including a pretax loss of 3.3 billion kroner ($334 million) and the complete absence of guidance.
Both are still up smartly on the week – SAS stock has gained 14% and Norwegian Air Shuttle stock 45% - but the sharp moves downward underline how the stocks have essentially become a plaything for thrill-seekers rather than a secure long-term investment."
What the airline needs is the "asian type" long term investment and not the short term speculative approach the "new shareholders" are taking.
New management and focus may see it survive, but head in the sand, and clouds approach coupled with press-ganged investors will surely make it fail. Perhaps the China influence will be a good thing..
Both are still up smartly on the week – SAS stock has gained 14% and Norwegian Air Shuttle stock 45% - but the sharp moves downward underline how the stocks have essentially become a plaything for thrill-seekers rather than a secure long-term investment."
What the airline needs is the "asian type" long term investment and not the short term speculative approach the "new shareholders" are taking.
New management and focus may see it survive, but head in the sand, and clouds approach coupled with press-ganged investors will surely make it fail. Perhaps the China influence will be a good thing..
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Uk
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Both are still up smartly on the week – SAS stock has gained 14% and Norwegian Air Shuttle stock 45% - but the sharp moves downward underline how the stocks have essentially become a plaything for thrill-seekers rather than a secure long-term investment."
Last edited by Clop_Clop; 29th May 2020 at 10:24.