Hard times for Norwegian
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Not at all, I want to reach a certain level of renumeration for my services . That is limited by the role I play and my value to the employer. What do you think you should be paid ? A million dollars ?it’s just not up there......
for instance the guy who thought $110 dollars to be a 747 cruise pilot and thought that was ok, I don’t think that’s ok....
A lot of 737 captains joined NAS as 787 FOs or “ relief captains “ and it worked out for most of them with quick upgrades -
but it’s a risky move .
for instance the guy who thought $110 dollars to be a 747 cruise pilot and thought that was ok, I don’t think that’s ok....
A lot of 737 captains joined NAS as 787 FOs or “ relief captains “ and it worked out for most of them with quick upgrades -
but it’s a risky move .
The step up from SFO to Captain is a joke with regards to pay, taking into account the higher tax bracket you end up in.
Using a company like Wizz as one of the worst, base pay is 45.000 Euros for a Captain, the remainder is made up by sector pay, which from the guys I know gives them pretty good pay, when they of course fly, which is a dangerous system to have.
Considering that we need to take into account such periods where companies will suddenly tell us, they are not going to pay us for 2 - 3 - 4 months, we should be getting significant higher salaries in the good times, so we are able to build up extra funds for crisis like this.
Considering increase of cost of living the last decade, we are getting less and less for our money.
In the past I ran my own company, and worked much less and made much more money than someone currently in the LHS in Europe working like a dog, and having £5500 a month.
Considering how business was before Covid 19, we were at least 20 - 30 % below the level of pay we should be on. Such a pay increase can be related to companies profits.
I agree there are other things more important than money, but I believe the remuneration have regressed massively the last decade.
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Last edited by uncle-traveling-matt; 23rd Apr 2020 at 07:18.
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This thread is getting more and more surreal by the minute. An airline driven into $7 billion in dept by undercutting competition, defended by its former employees arguing they earned more as a captain than a BA F/O.
I’ll have to take a 5 minute break plastering my cracked ribs from laughing and crying
I’ll have to take a 5 minute break plastering my cracked ribs from laughing and crying
The reason people defend it, is simply it’s actually a nice place to work.
Good luck with A&E at present , try not to get coughed on
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In the UK.. not according to OSM, although BALPA hope that UK Gov will accept them too JRS.. In Spain unions starting process against NAS as they believe pilots still employed during the ERTE process, bit of a hollow gesture as the subsidiary that "employed" the pilots is bankrupt. Board meeting 4th May will simply tell investors that they have no funds and any monies will be directed towards homeland operations preservations. Whatever the complexities of the employment model was/is it makes no difference if the company is broke. Irish lease companies looking to recover aircraft. If the UK was "open for business" those with training credits could at least punt around the sim companies.. The real issue with this job is when you can't do it anymore, even in retirement and its a lesson to be learnt that there has to be a life outside aviation. For 25 years it paid my bills, now is the time to enjoy family times, look around you.. the most valuable thing maybe in the room with you
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No idea what you are talking about. I worked less than my colleagues at the legacies whilst earning a great salary. In summer months 3-4 Trips with the occasional 5th Trip. With vacation days and 10 days off per month it was sometimes 1-2 Trips. Spring Winter Fall was 1-3 Trips per month. Around 500h per year maximum. I did not consider this hard work tbh. But you must have more Information about this.
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Please don't ask me to re-read the whole thread. I just want to know the answer to a simple question. Will Norwegian Long haul from Gatwick still operate after Coronavirus?
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Would be very difficult with no crew (OSM agreement terminated) and no A/C, There was a small chance as investors felt they had no option other than to convert debts to shares, but.. the latest shenanigans have shown the aviation community how the NAS Board view other elements outside of Norway as "disposable" ..unless there is a huge cash injection it would be near impossible with their credit rating. The UK CAA would require assurance of their financial viability as per the terms of the AOC and so would ATOL, Stranger things have happened and one lives in hope as a healthy competition is always good,
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Would be very difficult with no crew (OSM agreement terminated) and no A/C, There was a small chance as investors felt they had no option other than to convert debts to shares, but.. the latest shenanigans have shown the aviation community how the NAS Board view other elements outside of Norway as "disposable" ..unless there is a huge cash injection it would be near impossible with their credit rating. The UK CAA would require assurance of their financial viability as per the terms of the AOC and so would ATOL, Stranger things have happened and one lives in hope as a healthy competition is always good,
The law says your holiday must be protected if it is a package holiday. ATOL (which stands for Air Travel Organiser’s Licence) is a UK financial protection scheme and it protects most air package holidays sold by travel businesses that are based in the UK.
ATOL is run by the UK Civil Aviation Authority (CAA).
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So the crew in LGW are gone, but the planes still exist....
so how long will the crews have to wait to be called back for their jobs? A year, 6 months, 2 years?
Or are the sale and collapse of the additional AOCs outside Norway to come?
so how long will the crews have to wait to be called back for their jobs? A year, 6 months, 2 years?
Or are the sale and collapse of the additional AOCs outside Norway to come?
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You make a very valid point..
If I may be just a little indulgent.. I know many here have their opinions of the aviation industry right now.
Some few, probably more than 25 years ago pilots were regarded as a professional person in society. These past 15 or so years has seen a massive influx of pilots that have come to the airlines through many and various systems of training. Each one has arrived with the same (or very similar through the European (EASA) approved training philosophy). Absolutely not their fault for believing they all have the same credentials.. But of course this system has become flawed and at times a little, shall we say (loose).
Airlines, yep the so called LCC, has without doubt availed themselves to (employ) such aircrew on a different model of employment that had before 2001 never been seen. Promises of fortune and command progression overtook even the slightest imagination of future employment or more importantly, retirement. !
NOTE.. To read again .. ‘Loss of licence insurance’.. The mention of pension, loss of licence or medical cover was never even whispered into the ear of a budding new recruit. How little they knew of any calamity that could ever befall them.The invincible pilot!! always brave and understanding to the point of no return. But hey, that’s only a small part of the problem that has been created.
From the flight schools that sell the model of earning fabulous wealth along with expectations of rising to command (seriously it takes far more than flying a good visual), to the airlines that promise careers whilst opening up new routes for all those amazing passengers, who at anytime may decide to stop flying. Wow do they ever make that decision !!
Really have to feel for the so called ‘Norwegian pilots’ at this time.. Not sure how you ever came to agree to work for a third party company (OSM), obviously knowing your conditions of pay, tax and pension were being decided completely outside of your own choosing. What the F**k were you thinking!!. But have faith.. You are not the only ones to befall this fate..
Ryanair pilots, along with Smartwings, LOT, Enter Air and so many others are exactly in the same soup..
So what to do about this ‘atypical employment model’ ?
It’s all up to you.. Take your chance and hey, welcome to your chosen path of employment.. Check out the ECA.. This may be your very last chance to gain correct employment in the most amazing career you have chosen!
Now go and read the NOTE again . If you are recently unemployed you will certainly be looking at this.. For only 1 months earnings you could have an insurance policy that would keep you as safe as the ducks 🦆 on the pond for the next 6 months.. But hey, no one ever listens to advice eh!
If I may be just a little indulgent.. I know many here have their opinions of the aviation industry right now.
Some few, probably more than 25 years ago pilots were regarded as a professional person in society. These past 15 or so years has seen a massive influx of pilots that have come to the airlines through many and various systems of training. Each one has arrived with the same (or very similar through the European (EASA) approved training philosophy). Absolutely not their fault for believing they all have the same credentials.. But of course this system has become flawed and at times a little, shall we say (loose).
Airlines, yep the so called LCC, has without doubt availed themselves to (employ) such aircrew on a different model of employment that had before 2001 never been seen. Promises of fortune and command progression overtook even the slightest imagination of future employment or more importantly, retirement. !
NOTE.. To read again .. ‘Loss of licence insurance’.. The mention of pension, loss of licence or medical cover was never even whispered into the ear of a budding new recruit. How little they knew of any calamity that could ever befall them.The invincible pilot!! always brave and understanding to the point of no return. But hey, that’s only a small part of the problem that has been created.
From the flight schools that sell the model of earning fabulous wealth along with expectations of rising to command (seriously it takes far more than flying a good visual), to the airlines that promise careers whilst opening up new routes for all those amazing passengers, who at anytime may decide to stop flying. Wow do they ever make that decision !!
Really have to feel for the so called ‘Norwegian pilots’ at this time.. Not sure how you ever came to agree to work for a third party company (OSM), obviously knowing your conditions of pay, tax and pension were being decided completely outside of your own choosing. What the F**k were you thinking!!. But have faith.. You are not the only ones to befall this fate..
Ryanair pilots, along with Smartwings, LOT, Enter Air and so many others are exactly in the same soup..
So what to do about this ‘atypical employment model’ ?
It’s all up to you.. Take your chance and hey, welcome to your chosen path of employment.. Check out the ECA.. This may be your very last chance to gain correct employment in the most amazing career you have chosen!
Now go and read the NOTE again . If you are recently unemployed you will certainly be looking at this.. For only 1 months earnings you could have an insurance policy that would keep you as safe as the ducks 🦆 on the pond for the next 6 months.. But hey, no one ever listens to advice eh!
Last edited by advent; 23rd Apr 2020 at 15:24.
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I totally see what you are saying ad, and to some extent I agree. But as always, there are more than one side to a coin. As for Norwegian I can only say I flew with VERY few pilots who had not been somewhere else before... Either turboprop, instructing or, for the vast majority, Ryanair. I guess it depends on the base, but as for LGW the average age or experience in the flightdeck was more than the industry standard. We are talking 10-20+ years in the bizz. Upgrades were for those who had 4000 hours or more and I saw very very few actually get throught the process of upgrading compared to how many who tried. I guess you have to have a certain standard when you are dealing with extreme conditions in scandinavia all the time.
With regards to how this "spiral" all began, you have to remember that we have had a whole generation of pilots finishing either during the crisis of 2008 or in the years thereafter. As you know, the amount of available jobs went to virtually zero for many many years. And with no experience, there was only one show in town - Ryanair. With that said, I know plenty of people who are still happy in Ryanair (From what I understand it depends very much on the base). At the time you could have been a reincarnation of Charles Lindberg and still be unable to land a job. People had/and still have bills to pay and after 6 monhts without a job you have to do something! Not everybody has rich parents or a friendly bank to provide a safetynet.
This time around you will see exactly the same! People need food on the table and from the looks of it, there will be even less choice on the market. So when you say people have to choose carefully next time they look for another job, I see what you are saying, but it's a comment formed from a person with more choice and less risk than the majority. We also have to remember that not all pilots in Europe live (or want to live) in the UK and as such have less of a desire to try their luck with it's airlines.
The situation becomes more and more complex each and every single day at the moment and if we continue like this we will likely see pilots in the legacy airlines compromise on decades of union work in order to pay the bills. We all have a breaking point - Even those who hide behind their respectable airlines cash-reserves pointing fingers. I personally hope we see more approvals of state loans to airlines big and small. Sometimes that little bit of extra fuel (time) makes a huge difference when the storms are building up in order to make a "safe landing"....
With regards to how this "spiral" all began, you have to remember that we have had a whole generation of pilots finishing either during the crisis of 2008 or in the years thereafter. As you know, the amount of available jobs went to virtually zero for many many years. And with no experience, there was only one show in town - Ryanair. With that said, I know plenty of people who are still happy in Ryanair (From what I understand it depends very much on the base). At the time you could have been a reincarnation of Charles Lindberg and still be unable to land a job. People had/and still have bills to pay and after 6 monhts without a job you have to do something! Not everybody has rich parents or a friendly bank to provide a safetynet.
This time around you will see exactly the same! People need food on the table and from the looks of it, there will be even less choice on the market. So when you say people have to choose carefully next time they look for another job, I see what you are saying, but it's a comment formed from a person with more choice and less risk than the majority. We also have to remember that not all pilots in Europe live (or want to live) in the UK and as such have less of a desire to try their luck with it's airlines.
The situation becomes more and more complex each and every single day at the moment and if we continue like this we will likely see pilots in the legacy airlines compromise on decades of union work in order to pay the bills. We all have a breaking point - Even those who hide behind their respectable airlines cash-reserves pointing fingers. I personally hope we see more approvals of state loans to airlines big and small. Sometimes that little bit of extra fuel (time) makes a huge difference when the storms are building up in order to make a "safe landing"....
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You mention the low pass rate at the command course like it’s a sign of good standard.
Let me tell you, it is not.
Either the quality of the applicant is so bad that you can’t possibly put him or her on the left seat or the training department is failing at its job of developing the FOs.
Either way, not something to be proud of.
Let me tell you, it is not.
Either the quality of the applicant is so bad that you can’t possibly put him or her on the left seat or the training department is failing at its job of developing the FOs.
Either way, not something to be proud of.
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You are actually partially right I think. Reading it again, I can see how it sounds. My point was merely that they did not just take people with "enough hours" throwing them into the left seat because of the commercial pressure. It took time. That said, there should have been more coaching for people who had the right attitude and skills and i do agree that a high fail-rate is not (always) a good sign... Thank you for pointing that out.