Cathay messy in SFO
I find it interesting that many posters have mentioned that the Cathay crew would have been fatigued after a long flight. I have seen similar reasoning on other threads where crews have made mistakes.
Assuming they were within their crew duty times can we really excuse the mistake by saying they were tired?
I know what it’s like to be fatigued but surely the regulations and our best practice should prevent it from causing problems such as this.
If crews are routinely making mistakes due to fatigue then maybe the rules need to be changed.
I realise I am putting the cat amongst the pigeons here but I do love a good debate.i(
BV
Assuming they were within their crew duty times can we really excuse the mistake by saying they were tired?
I know what it’s like to be fatigued but surely the regulations and our best practice should prevent it from causing problems such as this.
If crews are routinely making mistakes due to fatigue then maybe the rules need to be changed.
I realise I am putting the cat amongst the pigeons here but I do love a good debate.i(
BV
My worst, LHR to NBO, via CDG, or ADD, dep 2200, 12 hours rest then back to London, all legal, Arr LHR feeling rather dismal to say the least. I declined my company request to op as 767 Captain, AUH to PER ! And we had three crew in those days !
So, many pilots now transferring to part time, no surprise there.
If you have not experienced it perhaps, best to stick to military, Jag, Hawk, matters !
sonic #60, thank you; we agree about the issue, but not necessarily the mechanism of how operations work or should work.
An international industry cannot depend on local knowledge, or rely on extensive briefing sheets specific to certain airports, and particularly on obscure, unpublished assumptions or interpretations of general regulations.
Safety is defined by what is done, what is knowable; we have safety margins and adaptability for surprise, but these must not be taken for granted as a normal operation.
If we do, then when there is a challenging situation, as in this incident, the affect of degraded safety margins cross recognised and acceptable safety boundaries.
These ‘normal’ operations are unsafe.
An international industry cannot depend on local knowledge, or rely on extensive briefing sheets specific to certain airports, and particularly on obscure, unpublished assumptions or interpretations of general regulations.
Safety is defined by what is done, what is knowable; we have safety margins and adaptability for surprise, but these must not be taken for granted as a normal operation.
If we do, then when there is a challenging situation, as in this incident, the affect of degraded safety margins cross recognised and acceptable safety boundaries.
These ‘normal’ operations are unsafe.
BA/BY
That’s not debate. That’s just telling me to mind my own business.
Are you trying to tell me that at the end of long sectors pilots are always tired and, as a result, are not able to perform a safe approach?
If this is the case then why do the rules allow it?
I suppose the greatest irony here is that, in a Hawk, I completed an approach to 28R at SFO at the end of a 12 hour work day in 2012. So you see, it wasn’t in a wide body, but I have actually been there. I was tired too.
I realise you have a lot of experience in the commercial world (whereas all of my experience is fast jet) and I don’t but I do fly as a long haul passenger quite regularly. If the ability to fly a safe approach is truly so compromised by fatigue then surely something needs to be done about it.
BV
Are you trying to tell me that at the end of long sectors pilots are always tired and, as a result, are not able to perform a safe approach?
If this is the case then why do the rules allow it?
I suppose the greatest irony here is that, in a Hawk, I completed an approach to 28R at SFO at the end of a 12 hour work day in 2012. So you see, it wasn’t in a wide body, but I have actually been there. I was tired too.
I realise you have a lot of experience in the commercial world (whereas all of my experience is fast jet) and I don’t but I do fly as a long haul passenger quite regularly. If the ability to fly a safe approach is truly so compromised by fatigue then surely something needs to be done about it.
BV
.................Are you trying to tell me that at the end of long sectors pilots are always tired and, as a result, are not able to perform a safe approach?
If this is the case then why do the rules allow it?
I suppose the greatest irony here is that, in a Hawk, I completed an approach to 28R at SFO at the end of a 12 hour work day in 2012. So you see, it wasn’t in a wide body, but I have actually been there. I was tired too.
I realise you have a lot of experience in the commercial world (whereas all of my experience is fast jet) and I don’t but I do fly as a long haul passenger quite regularly. If the ability to fly a safe approach is truly so compromised by fatigue then surely something needs to be done about it.
BV
If this is the case then why do the rules allow it?
I suppose the greatest irony here is that, in a Hawk, I completed an approach to 28R at SFO at the end of a 12 hour work day in 2012. So you see, it wasn’t in a wide body, but I have actually been there. I was tired too.
I realise you have a lot of experience in the commercial world (whereas all of my experience is fast jet) and I don’t but I do fly as a long haul passenger quite regularly. If the ability to fly a safe approach is truly so compromised by fatigue then surely something needs to be done about it.
BV
Not always, but yes, myself and others are saying that fatigue sometimes plays a part. We were all unhappy when EASA rules came in, but sadly not enough of us nor BALPA nor our CAA were prepared to refuse the new FTL rules. So here we are. I put in fatigue reports as many others do, but companies are continually screwing more and more hours out of fewer and fewer pilots because the passenger will usually only pay for the cheapest fight. In my company, we fly three crew on flight times over 10 hours or so, so at least we each get a couple of hours’ rest outside the cockpit. However, for us that rest is in a seat in the passenger compartment, with a curtain around it. You can still hear - and are kept awake by - passengers around you talking.
We have video briefings about certain airports but sometimes it can be your first time there, and no amount of words on a page or videos can fully prepare you for an American airport..............
This Cathay crew screwed up. They missed a turn. I don’t know why, but very probably it was fatigue or inadequate preparation or briefing. The Cathay pilot on the radio sounds stressed to me. Maybe none of the flight crew had been to SFO before.
Some Long-haul pilots are short on manual handling skills. They shouldn’t be, but many are. If you only get two landings a month and are encouraged by your airline and FDM to fly with the automatics then this can be the result. I have suggested several times on other threads how this might be addressed.
Bear in mind that airliners are mostly flown by average pilots - (and I include myself in that analysis). Fast jet pilots from the forces are much better pilots than most of us because they were the best 0.0001% (or whatever) selected from all applicants.
UK ATC is the best in the world in my humble opinion and 18 years’ commercial flying. Many US airports would benefit by learning from UK trained and experienced ATCers such as those from Heathrow, Gatwick or Swanwick.
Fly safe
Last edited by Uplinker; 4th Sep 2019 at 19:23.
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As I read this thread, I was reminded of a study from a decade or so ago, entitled "Trajectory Clustering and an Application to Airspace Monitoring." Actually, what I remembered is a a graphic, based on three months of Northern California TRACON records for the Bay Area. Here it is:
It's really a tribute to the industry and to the skills and professionalism of pilots and ATCOs that almost all of the millions of us who sometimes fly in and out of the Bay Area (and other busy destinations), in any seats, are alive and mostly undamaged.
It's really a tribute to the industry and to the skills and professionalism of pilots and ATCOs that almost all of the millions of us who sometimes fly in and out of the Bay Area (and other busy destinations), in any seats, are alive and mostly undamaged.
That’s not debate. That’s just telling me to mind my own business.
Are you trying to tell me that at the end of long sectors pilots are always tired and, as a result, are not able to perform a safe approach?
If this is the case then why do the rules allow it?
I suppose the greatest irony here is that, in a Hawk, I completed an approach to 28R at SFO at the end of a 12 hour work day in 2012. So you see, it wasn’t in a wide body, but I have actually been there. I was tired too.
I realise you have a lot of experience in the commercial world (whereas all of my experience is fast jet) and I don’t but I do fly as a long haul passenger quite regularly. If the ability to fly a safe approach is truly so compromised by fatigue then surely something needs to be done about it.
BV
Are you trying to tell me that at the end of long sectors pilots are always tired and, as a result, are not able to perform a safe approach?
If this is the case then why do the rules allow it?
I suppose the greatest irony here is that, in a Hawk, I completed an approach to 28R at SFO at the end of a 12 hour work day in 2012. So you see, it wasn’t in a wide body, but I have actually been there. I was tired too.
I realise you have a lot of experience in the commercial world (whereas all of my experience is fast jet) and I don’t but I do fly as a long haul passenger quite regularly. If the ability to fly a safe approach is truly so compromised by fatigue then surely something needs to be done about it.
BV
Fatigue is a fact of life in such ops.and, I believe, always will be so long as humans are involved, particularly when airlines are trying to get as much productivity from the pilots as the law allows. Something the military does not do, so far as I know !
( I guess the short haul guys working to EASA limits are getting pretty tired too ! )
Last edited by RetiredBA/BY; 5th Sep 2019 at 11:17.
Retired BA/BY:
"Balanced/informed debate".
"You may have been fatigued BUT do you have any experience of long, often night, flights with big time changes and your circadian rythm shot to pieces."
"My worst, LHR to NBO, via CDG........."
Can you just remind us what the time shift is between London and Nairobi. My experience was that north/south was easy but east/west could just be a bit more difficult.
"Balanced/informed debate".
"You may have been fatigued BUT do you have any experience of long, often night, flights with big time changes and your circadian rythm shot to pieces."
"My worst, LHR to NBO, via CDG........."
Can you just remind us what the time shift is between London and Nairobi. My experience was that north/south was easy but east/west could just be a bit more difficult.
Only about two hours, and yes, east - West is a lot worse. That said, trying to sleep before a long night was not always easy, particularly in summer.
...but fatigue, not just tiredness, is not just about one trip, its the accumulation of repeated difficult flights.
Looking back at my career I remember that as the worst night’s work but perhaps time dims the memory !
I see fatigue is being discussed again in the BA pilots strike thread.
...but fatigue, not just tiredness, is not just about one trip, its the accumulation of repeated difficult flights.
Looking back at my career I remember that as the worst night’s work but perhaps time dims the memory !
I see fatigue is being discussed again in the BA pilots strike thread.
Last edited by RetiredBA/BY; 6th Sep 2019 at 07:45.
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SFO is going down to one runway (landing) operation for the next twenty days due to the main runway 28L sinking in the middle at the intersection of runways one left/right. This is the runway they just did an overlay on two years ago.
Expect three hour delays and cancellations over the next month.
https://www.fly.faa.gov/flyfaa/flyfaaindex.jsp?ARPT=SFO&p=0
https://www.flysfo.com/media/press-r...-september-7th
Expect three hour delays and cancellations over the next month.
https://www.fly.faa.gov/flyfaa/flyfaaindex.jsp?ARPT=SFO&p=0
https://www.flysfo.com/media/press-r...-september-7th
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In my opinion the problem here largely lies with the controller not providing more information on where he was trying to position Cathay in the first place, and then continuing with the instruction when it was clear there was a risk of loss of separation.
That is, when he gave the first turn instruction he should have advised CPA 892 that the turn should be immediate to get in front of UAL 1515, and once that didn't happen, he should have lined CPA 892 behind UAL 1515. The direction to turn was quite late given the position of the aircraft in any case. I think it's very odd that he didn't change the sequence when it was clear the initial instructions were not followed and so could cause loss of separation. it seems reasonably clear that the controller was fixated on managing congestion, which he probably does his entire shift. I would say that is the root cause. Both pilots express a surrendering of control to ATC.
That is, when he gave the first turn instruction he should have advised CPA 892 that the turn should be immediate to get in front of UAL 1515, and once that didn't happen, he should have lined CPA 892 behind UAL 1515. The direction to turn was quite late given the position of the aircraft in any case. I think it's very odd that he didn't change the sequence when it was clear the initial instructions were not followed and so could cause loss of separation. it seems reasonably clear that the controller was fixated on managing congestion, which he probably does his entire shift. I would say that is the root cause. Both pilots express a surrendering of control to ATC.
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Following an RA
Everybody is an "aviation expert" until the Lavatory backs up! :-)
I hear all you experts analyzing the RA maneuver, or the lack of by the United 'Guppy.'
At airports like SFO, with parallel visual approaches in progress, but still under positive radar control and both aircraft visually flying in formation, United pilots are allowed to place the transponder in TA. This is to prevent nuisance RA's in short final.
Unfortunately, the Cathay crew could not fly or follow the ATC instructions. In this case, I would have abandoned the approach the minute I see the other aircraft uncomfortably coming too close to mine. Way before the Tower finally waves the errant pilot off.
SFO/NorCal controllers are among the best in the business, given the incredible task in hand. They also assume a pilot of a state of the art A-350 flying into the San Francisco International Airport can follow basic ATC instructions and possess basic flying skills!
I hear all you experts analyzing the RA maneuver, or the lack of by the United 'Guppy.'
At airports like SFO, with parallel visual approaches in progress, but still under positive radar control and both aircraft visually flying in formation, United pilots are allowed to place the transponder in TA. This is to prevent nuisance RA's in short final.
Unfortunately, the Cathay crew could not fly or follow the ATC instructions. In this case, I would have abandoned the approach the minute I see the other aircraft uncomfortably coming too close to mine. Way before the Tower finally waves the errant pilot off.
SFO/NorCal controllers are among the best in the business, given the incredible task in hand. They also assume a pilot of a state of the art A-350 flying into the San Francisco International Airport can follow basic ATC instructions and possess basic flying skills!
Last edited by 787PIC; 15th Sep 2019 at 06:24.
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Retired BA/BY:
"Balanced/informed debate".
"You may have been fatigued BUT do you have any experience of long, often night, flights with big time changes and your circadian rythm shot to pieces."
"My worst, LHR to NBO, via CDG........."
Can you just remind us what the time shift is between London and Nairobi. My experience was that north/south was easy but east/west could just be a bit more difficult.
"Balanced/informed debate".
"You may have been fatigued BUT do you have any experience of long, often night, flights with big time changes and your circadian rythm shot to pieces."
"My worst, LHR to NBO, via CDG........."
Can you just remind us what the time shift is between London and Nairobi. My experience was that north/south was easy but east/west could just be a bit more difficult.
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New type to the fleet, so how much time on type might be a consideration. Work overload, trying to make an A-350 slow to minimum speed in a few miles. Don't know the aircraft but I remember when London ATC tried to use what they considered normal separation behind a 747's when the DC-10 first started flying to LHR. Didn't work out so well for the DC-10 with a go arounds occurring frequently until ATC learned of the higher min. approach speed of the DC-10.
... I remember when London ATC tried to use what they considered normal separation behind a 747's when the DC-10 first started flying to LHR. Didn't work out so well for the DC-10 with a go arounds occurring frequently until ATC learned of the higher min. approach speed of the DC-10.
[Topic drift]
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On the 777 into LHR you are 180 kts until they slow you to 160 to 4 DME. Going downhill ( on the glide slope) around 500,000 pounds landing weight it won’t slow down to or hold 180 at flaps 15 gear up. Your choices are flaps 20 gear up or flaps 15 gear down. Most of us were trained to put the gear down before you go to flaps 20, mainly because if you go flaps 25 before the gear is locked down you will get the config warning.
cactusbusdrvr – Thanks, interesting. BTW, looking back I see that it was from a 787 that a stowaway’s body fell only a few blocks away from where I was. He’d apparently hidden in the wheel well, so I guess other types also need to have gear down as early as 10nm out.
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