Suspected drink drivers again - surely not?-
Thread Starter
Suspected drink drivers again - surely not?-
Two United pilots arrested at Glasgow this morning::
They can't be serious?
United Pilots drinking?
IG
They can't be serious?
United Pilots drinking?
IG
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Hope they finished that crew lounge at the Paisley Sheriff Court.
It's been almost three years since the last United pilots were caught over the limit at GLA. From the article linked above:
Is United still staying at the Hilton?
It's been almost three years since the last United pilots were caught over the limit at GLA. From the article linked above:
In 2017, two United Airline pilots were jailed for breaching drink-fly limits at Glasgow Airport.
First Officer Paul Grebenc, 35, was sentenced to 10 months in prison.
His colleague Carlos Roberto Licona, 45, was jailed for 15 months.
Both had been arrested while preparing to take off from Glasgow on 27 August 2016.
First Officer Paul Grebenc, 35, was sentenced to 10 months in prison.
His colleague Carlos Roberto Licona, 45, was jailed for 15 months.
Both had been arrested while preparing to take off from Glasgow on 27 August 2016.
Is United still staying at the Hilton?
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Is there a disconnect between 0.04 there and 0.02 here? Or were they trashed after a night on Sauchiehall St? 80 shillings, some shorts and a curry. The toxicology results will be interesting. And sad.
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Not mentioning this as an excuse, but some European layovers must be hard for Americans.
When I (as an European) am Stateside, in the evenings the Jetlag sometimes makes me too tired to stand up, let alone hold a beer. In the Far East, otoh, in the evenings I have so much energy that I am glad to have only a few hours sleep before a morning departure back home.
So while my personal chances to be over the limit in the US are zero without even thinking about it, in the East I have to be consciously aware of limits when, if or how much to drink.
I guess that works the same for Americans in Europe.
While absolutely disapproving drinking and flying, and recognizing problematic use, I also see a bigger risk for honest (and stupid) mistakes for them overhere.
When I (as an European) am Stateside, in the evenings the Jetlag sometimes makes me too tired to stand up, let alone hold a beer. In the Far East, otoh, in the evenings I have so much energy that I am glad to have only a few hours sleep before a morning departure back home.
So while my personal chances to be over the limit in the US are zero without even thinking about it, in the East I have to be consciously aware of limits when, if or how much to drink.
I guess that works the same for Americans in Europe.
While absolutely disapproving drinking and flying, and recognizing problematic use, I also see a bigger risk for honest (and stupid) mistakes for them overhere.
Last edited by golfyankeesierra; 4th Aug 2019 at 00:08.
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And you thought random drug and alcohol testing was as far as they could go...how about a breathalyzer every time you report for work ? Those hand-held gizmos are cheap...cheap enough to be located at every layover station in your system. Administered by some gate agent supervisor who already hates your guts.
Never underestimate what government will do in its own interest.
I'm flying the Hajj for Garuda at the moment.
Garuda does a medical check when reporting for each duty at an Indonesian station.
Breathalyzer test & blood pressure.
Fine with me.
Garuda does a medical check when reporting for each duty at an Indonesian station.
Breathalyzer test & blood pressure.
Fine with me.
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See: https://indianexpress.com/article/in...light-5829703/
https://www.businesstoday.in/sectors...ry/307420.html
Pilots are going to show up for work drunk, it's an unfortunate fact of life. The days of 'you call in sick and I'll cover for you' are long gone in the U.S. in my opinion. I agree that we need to try to self police but you are right, stronger measures are probably coming.
I would not particularly be inclined to agree that policies from 3rd world countries are the proper solution to issues here if that is offered as justification for whatever the Perfumed Princes in DC should/might do.
Of course, we long ago abandoned the Fourth Amendment as it might relate to airline pilots. If we keep poking the bear with stuff like this, we'll get what we asked for. Well, YOU will...I won't. They can't get at me any longer. Maybe Lizzy Dole will come out of retirement to help with the "solution".
The industry need not despair since there's no level of abuse pilots will not meekly submit to.
Last edited by bafanguy; 4th Aug 2019 at 21:15.
Thread Starter
...and I quote from the "Max" thread:
Would you want to ride with any pilot who is impaired by drink? and the requirements for reaction and response time could be as short as quoted above?
Yes, this is the MAX but I doubt that the reaction and response times required are much more.
If there is nothing to hide there is nothing to fear in this regard.
IG
Further to GordonR’s reply, I would add that the regulatory assumption of a 3-second response time to trim runaway is highly questionable. The operating data manual for my (military) type assumes a 3.5-second pilot response time for loss of thrust during takeoff, and that’s a readily-diagnosed failure where the pilot can reasonably be assumed to be in a state of optimum vigilance with hand on throttle, ready to cut. Contrast that with trim runaway on a 737, where the first second or two could easily be rationalised away as speed trim, leaving only another second to complete the diagnosis and instruct PNF to cutout the trim. Then add more time for PNF to process this startling instruction and find, unguard and flip the switches. Then maybe add more time for CRM SOPs (“state the malfunction”... “memory items”...), depending on company culture and crew experience. The Mentour Pilot video from months ago may have exaggerated this grossly (10:10 to 11:25 at the link below), but whichever way you look at it, an allowance of only 3 seconds to isolate the trim implies an optimistic assessment of human startle response.
Yes, this is the MAX but I doubt that the reaction and response times required are much more.
If there is nothing to hide there is nothing to fear in this regard.
IG
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Just a question, but exactly how accurate are breathalyzers? Is a reading of 0.02 significantly different from 0.01? I would guess that they have a certain amount of error, and only a blood test can give you a really accurate reading.
I assume you are the citizen of a country where your civil rights are codified ? Do you not expect full recognition of those rights regardless of your occupation ?
"If there is nothing to hide there is nothing to fear in this regard." is irrelevant and the ruse of tyrants.
Breathalyzers are screening devices with some accuracy flaws (name a device that doesn't have flaws). That inaccuracy may win you a blood test. In the meantime, you're guilty until proven innocent...and still get to be that guy pulled off his flight for being "drunk" even when you weren't.
But if people are happy being treated like that I guess I'm happy for them.
Thread Starter
As you say, the Breathalyzer can provide false positives so is normally not the final authority on impairment, a formal blood test will confirm the results some time later, but the blood test may also occur too late to confirm the limit being exceeded. Does that mean that some pilots intended to fly while impaired? but it could not be proved because of limitations in the equipment and processes available?.
I am not going to comment on whether the actual suspicions which give rise to a Breathalyzer test, for I agree that the powers that be, exceed their authority in some situations, due to jealousy, greed, and a false sense of authority. However this should be dealt with as a separate issue. As for the media's handling of these cases, I find their activities deplorable and frankly deserving of litigation when they cross the line. (I have already seen mention of the word "drunk" and that should meet with an appropriate response, A five line retraction at the bottom of page ten, does not cut it.)
As has been stated, this event is likely to result in a more expanded process to determine results quickly. Some airlines and nations are not even waiting for a better process to be introduced, preferring to err on the side of caution and safety. I, for one, appreciate that.
IG
I am not going to comment on whether the actual suspicions which give rise to a Breathalyzer test, for I agree that the powers that be, exceed their authority in some situations, due to jealousy, greed, and a false sense of authority. However this should be dealt with as a separate issue. As for the media's handling of these cases, I find their activities deplorable and frankly deserving of litigation when they cross the line. (I have already seen mention of the word "drunk" and that should meet with an appropriate response, A five line retraction at the bottom of page ten, does not cut it.)
As has been stated, this event is likely to result in a more expanded process to determine results quickly. Some airlines and nations are not even waiting for a better process to be introduced, preferring to err on the side of caution and safety. I, for one, appreciate that.
IG
Not mentioning this as an excuse, but some European layovers must be hard for Americans.
When I (as an European) am Stateside, in the evenings the Jetlag sometimes makes me too tired to stand up, let alone hold a beer. In the Far East, otoh, in the evenings I have so much energy that I am glad to have only a few hours sleep before a morning departure back home.
So while my personal chances to be over the limit in the US are zero without even thinking about it, in the East I have to be consciously aware of limits when, if or how much to drink.
I guess that works the same for Americans in Europe.
While absolutely disapproving drinking and flying, and recognizing problematic use, I also see a bigger risk for honest (and stupid) mistakes for them overhere.
When I (as an European) am Stateside, in the evenings the Jetlag sometimes makes me too tired to stand up, let alone hold a beer. In the Far East, otoh, in the evenings I have so much energy that I am glad to have only a few hours sleep before a morning departure back home.
So while my personal chances to be over the limit in the US are zero without even thinking about it, in the East I have to be consciously aware of limits when, if or how much to drink.
I guess that works the same for Americans in Europe.
While absolutely disapproving drinking and flying, and recognizing problematic use, I also see a bigger risk for honest (and stupid) mistakes for them overhere.
Sadly we get the rules/laws thet the irresponsible create justification for. I am sure we can all think of many in day to day life. Some idiot behaves badly and the "there needs to be a law for this" will kick in and then all the responsible people will have to suffer it.
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Sadly we get the rules/laws thet the irresponsible create justification for. I am sure we can all think of many in day to day life. Some idiot behaves badly and the "there needs to be a law for this" will kick in and then all the responsible people will have to suffer it.