JFK Thunderstorms

[Sailvi767]

Let’s everyone be careful out there. I have witnessed some strange things in the last month. On the 22nd at JFK with level 5 thunderstorms in the area a KLM flight took off with a 16 knot tailwind on 22R with a huge cell 3 miles N and tower calling a wind shear alert. After a runway switch to 4 a Aero Mexico flight accepted a take off clearance with no available departure path and WS alerts and only cancelled take off when they got a onboard WS alert. 2 minutes later a Ethiopian inbound flight landed on 4R after declaring a fuel emergency. As they touched down we were getting onboard radar windshear alerts for the arrival corridor. The cell over JFK had tops reported at 56,000 feet at that time.

[Dan_Brown]

Nothing wrong being reminded of the dangers of extreme WX, for example and the pssible consquences, should things not go according to plan.

We're all fallible, each and every one of us. I have fear of T/S's among other things in aviation. If we don't have fear therefore respect of possible consquences, we're in the wrong business. It's helped keep me alive up until now.

[hunterboy]

I was in JFK a couple of months ago in the queue for a 22 R departure but facing up towards the ILS arrival path during particularly bad weather, causing >1 hour ground and air delays.
We were surprised when our PWS went off as we were in the queue stationary on the taxiway. Suffice to say, the next couple of arrivals on the approach went around.
One of the times we were glad to be on the ground with loads of excess fuel happy to wait it all out.

[Sailvi767]

It was actually the first time I have seen PWS work on the ground and we got multiple alerts on the 22nd. Nice to watch it in action so to speak.

[flyboyike]

I thought Les Abend retired?

[Capt Fathom]

Originally Posted by Sailvi767

Let’s everyone be careful out there.

Luckily everyone reads PPRuNe!

[M.Mouse]

Originally Posted by Sailvi767

Let’s everyone be careful out there.

Is the implication of that statement that normally people aren't careful?

[Sailvi767]

Originally Posted by M.Mouse

Is the implication of that statement that normally people aren't careful?

I would say sometimes people are less than careful depending on circumstances. KLM knew that if they did not depart it was going to be a long night. Tower asked if any of the other aircraft in line were willing to depart as KLM rolled. The radio stayed silent so the majority were careful and yes we all had a long night.

[Dan_Brown]

Certain airlines in a hurry, "gethomeitis"? Commercial pressure raising it's ugly head again?

Sad how history has a habit of repeating itself.

[Hotel Tango]

On the 22nd at JFK with level 5 thunderstorms in the area a KLM flight took off with a 16 knot tailwind on 22R with a huge cell 3 miles N and tower calling a wind shear alert.

Fair enough, but for the sake of impartiality the DAL172 departed 3 to 4 minutes in front of the KLM. The KLM made his left turn slightly earlier than the DAL.

[aterpster]

Originally Posted by Hotel Tango

Fair enough, but for the sake of impartiality the DAL172 departed 3 to 4 minutes in front of the KLM. The KLM made his left turn slightly earlier than the DAL.

Are you agreeing that both of them did risky departures?

[Hotel Tango]

Are you agreeing that both of them did risky departures?

It is not for me to judge either way. I wasn't in their cockpits looking at whatever data they were looking at. I just wanted to put the record straight that, as I felt was being implied, it wasn't just the KLM that opted to depart at that time. If I have a personal opinion, to me it would imply that (with CRM) there were at least 4 professional pilots who considered it safe enough to go and the Delta was not heading home!

[Tomaski]

Originally Posted by hunterboy

We were surprised when our PWS went off as we were in the queue stationary on the taxiway.

I've had PWS go off because it was sensing the thrust of an aircraft in front of me (no weather in the area). Probably depends on the radar unit.

[the_stranger]

Originally Posted by Dan_Brown

Certain airlines in a hurry, "gethomeitis"? Commercial pressure raising it's ugly head again?

Sad how history has a habit of repeating itself.

How sad you are jumping to conclusions without being there...

[Sailvi767]

Originally Posted by Hotel Tango

Fair enough, but for the sake of impartiality the DAL172 departed 3 to 4 minutes in front of the KLM. The KLM made his left turn slightly earlier than the DAL.

The above is correct however Delta had a headwind at the time of departure with no tower wind shear alerts. Both aircraft had a clear departure corridor after getting airborne. Winds and conditions were changing by the minute.

[alioth]

Been a bad year for thunderstorms

[Sailvi767]

We have not had a major windshear accident in a long time. It breeds complacency. This cell had the ability to turn that 16 knot tailwind into 50 knots in the blink of a eye. It’s good to be lucky but luck eventually runs out.

[Hotel Tango]

This cell had the ability to turn that 16 knot tailwind into 50 knots in the blink of a eye.

Just as the minimum headwind component for the Delta when given take-off clearance could have similarly turned into a 16 knot tailwind as it accelerated down the runway and a 50 knot tailwind as it rotated.

It’s good to be lucky but luck eventually runs out.

Well yes, but were they "lucky"? That's quite a damning statement aimed at four fellow professionals.

You've had your say and made your point. It may be valid and it may not. You were not sitting in either of those cockpits.

[The Range]

These guys weren't that lucky.
​​​​​​Accident: Pan American Airways 759

[Hotel Tango]

That was 37 years ago on July 9th, 1982. Much has evolved since then!