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Loss of Control In-Flight - Flight Crew training

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Loss of Control In-Flight - Flight Crew training

Old 3rd Jul 2019, 22:05
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Loss of Control In-Flight - Flight Crew training

UK CAA Safety Notice 2019/005 landed in my inbox just now.

It is a devastating indictment of regulators and operators who have allowed a situation to develop where this SN is necessary.

Stripped of the dreadful jargon-ridden, ungrammatical verbiage it is telling everyone to get back to teaching and practising basic flying skills.

Isn't it?
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Old 3rd Jul 2019, 22:21
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Or you could just insist everyone spends a couple years tooling around in a knackered old turbo prob with no Ap! Sorry that bus has already departed, hasn't it!
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Old 3rd Jul 2019, 22:45
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Originally Posted by macdo View Post
Or you could just insist everyoneb spends a couple years tooling around in a knackered old turbo prob with no Ap! Sorry that bus has already departed, hasn't it!
Not really... better yet, they should spend a couple years tooling around in a 10k hr beat up piston twin full of checks and Fedex overload. In crappy upper-Midwest winter weather with a disgracefully thin MEL (missing stuff like A/p, de-ice and functioning RNAV (the real vor-based thing, not a GPS approach that links just like an ILS) going into airports with nothing but ADF approaches in the dead of night 5 days a week.


-Flame Off..,


I doubt one of those guys, even though I thought a lot of them were kinda crappy pilots, would EVER hold a plane in a 20 min stall into the south Atlantic....
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Old 4th Jul 2019, 02:09
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About damn time an authority got some balls. Remember that great presentation " Children of the Magenta Line".
well those " children" have now grown up to adults of the autopilot autohrottle and the Magenta line with company policies that actively encourage loss of manual flying skills. And they sit next to more children.

Last edited by CDRW; 4th Jul 2019 at 19:56.
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Old 4th Jul 2019, 02:38
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And some of those children are so young, they can't even legally enjoy a beer in some countries.
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Old 4th Jul 2019, 05:42
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Originally Posted by 421dog View Post
I doubt one of those guys, even though I thought a lot of them were kinda crappy pilots, would EVER hold a plane in a 20 min stall into the south Atlantic....
At risk of immediate and catastrophic thread drift, no-one intentionally ‘held a plane in a stall’. The AF447 crew were utterly devoid of comprehension of the aircraft’s condition, let down by poor and unreliable systems, and I strongly suspect profound distrust of those systems. They did the wrong thing because they hadn’t a clue what was going on and therefore had no idea what to do about it.

Yes, children of the magenta are all around us, and professional standards have never been lower, but please don’t blame the AF447 crew in that manner.
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Old 4th Jul 2019, 07:29
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TheiC

The previous poster did not say that the pilots deliberately held AF447 in a stall. He/she stated merely that they had held it in a stall. That is an absolute fact. They did.

They did not do it intentionally but you cannot deny the fact that they flew a stalled aircraft into the Atlantic Ocean.

AF447 remains the scariest aircraft accident I have ever been made aware of.

In the same way that doctors make bad patients, pilots often make bad passengers. I prefer not to even think about what is going on up the front end while I’m watching my movie and drinking wine.

I just try to trust that the guys and girls at the sharp end know what they are doing and would be able to handle whatever is thrown at them.

BV
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Old 4th Jul 2019, 07:57
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I wish the fantastic videos of Captain Warren Vanderberg ( Ex USN, and AA Training Captain), were freely and widely available on the internet ...

I remember watching them as a younger man, and they left me totally engaged in the subject ... his self affacing, open and honest description and remedy of Jet Upset scenarios were as good a training that has ever been recorded on video ..

I imagine being at the lectures ( " Children of the Magenta " ) was even more beneficial, but without exception everyone would be better prepared for an unintended, inadvertent entry into the Jet Upset environment. Having seen the lectures and considered privately their responses, every pilot would at least have a place to start if ever confronted with entry into the flight envelope way outside what is normally covered in formal simulator training ....

Does anyone know where these videos can be viewed in toto ... ?
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Old 4th Jul 2019, 08:02
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Originally Posted by Bob Viking View Post
The previous poster did not say that the pilots deliberately held AF447 in a stall. He/she stated merely that they had held it in a stall.
With apologies for the previously-warned thread drift, but this is important...

Bob, I'm sorry, but I must absolutely disagree with you.

Considering 'they held it', if an action is not deliberate, or even conscious, is it an action? I would argue, no, it isn't. They exhibited the outward signs of functioning, they moved controls, they reacted (mostly - but not entirely - inappropriately) to their (deeply confusing) environment, but they were a world away from acquiring and processing information, using it to build an accurate comprehension of their circumstances, referring to experience and training, and acting on it.

Moreover, some of their actions were contrary to 'holding it in a stall', so in strict terms I disagree with you there too.

The aircraft stalled into the ocean, without doubt, but it did so not because any pilot intended it to stall, and almost certainly none of them recognised it was stalling, at least not until it was much too late. By all means say they were confused, overloaded, in dissonance, but we should never say that anyone 'held that aircraft in a stall'. To do that does our profession a grave disservice and perpetuates the underlying faults which led to AF447 and others.
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Old 4th Jul 2019, 08:17
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I'm flying with kids who have less than 300hr TT and will jump on the AP p/b less than 500 feet agl after airbone when they can legally hand fly until RVSM airspace; How sad and scary is that....Children of the magenta is the number 1 threat in aviation IMHO.
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Old 4th Jul 2019, 08:35
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Originally Posted by pineteam View Post
I'm flying with kids who have less than 300hr TT and will jump on the AP p/b less than 500 feet agl after airbone when they can legally hand fly until RVSM airspace; How sad and scary is that....Children of the magenta is the number 1 threat in aviation IMHO.
I’m flying with Captains with 5000hr TT who jump on the AP at 500ft. How sad and scary is that? Including ex-military and what have you. Children of the magenta or fear of cocking up under Flight Data Monitoring?
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Old 4th Jul 2019, 08:44
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Yes Yes that's the trend. Many captains also engage the AP super early... I was shocked when I joined. But maybe they hand flew a lot before so you can almost forgive them But a kid fresh out of school, come on, he should enjoy it and hand fly while he can since he has no experience. Hand flying is not really encouraged. That's an issue. the Fear of the QAR or FDM whatever you want to call it is real but so ridiculous. To cock up you seriously need to deviate and it means the PM did not do his job... 80% of the accidents is due to a lack of monitoring. I very often fly raw data not only cause it's important to maintain my skills but because I love it. That freedom to hand fly is what makes me wake up with a smile in the morning before going to work. It makes me angry that so many people are so scared to fly because of QAR/FDM system... Just fly safely within the envelope is not rocket science unless you never practice. xD

Last edited by pineteam; 4th Jul 2019 at 09:02. Reason: added one sentence/typo
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Old 4th Jul 2019, 09:24
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Originally Posted by 421dog View Post


Not really... better yet, they should spend a couple years tooling around in a 10k hr beat up piston twin full of checks and Fedex overload. In crappy upper-Midwest winter weather with a disgracefully thin MEL (missing stuff like A/p, de-ice and functioning RNAV (the real vor-based thing, not a GPS approach that links just like an ILS) going into airports with nothing but ADF approaches in the dead of night 5 days a week.


-Flame Off..,


I doubt one of those guys, even though I thought a lot of them were kinda crappy pilots, would EVER hold a plane in a 20 min stall into the south Atlantic....
Sorry, you misunderstood me, I was advocating a few years in crappy aircraft with no automation for all, but the opportunity for all to do this has now past. The only chance for improvement is for far more exacting training. Airlines will baulk at the cost, but legislators must insist. TBH I was given a completely unexpected unreliable speed in the sim a few month back (Airbus) and the sea of contra indications from the FWC was appalling. Fortunately, my brain immediately went to basics of attitude/power and it all worked out, but it was a bit heart stopping.
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Old 4th Jul 2019, 09:52
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TheiC

I am a fast jet pilot not an airline pilot so I will happily defer to those more knowledgeable than myself. However, I’m not quite getting your point.

If an aircraft has full power applied (for virtually the entire time) and descends at 35 AoA from 35000 until impact how is this happening if not done by the pilot?

I know there was a ‘dual input’ issue and then one of the guys was trying to take corrective action. The Captain seemed to appreciate there was a stall but the FO kept his stick fully back trying to climb.

Do you use the acronym SABIRS in the civilian world for signs of the stall? The last one is ‘stick fully back’.

I understand that there are different modes or laws with the AP (my current jet has autopilot but far more simple than an Airbus) which will affect handling etc. The basics still apply though.

This is not me disagreeing with you necessarily but I still do not understand how you can say the pilot did not hold the aircraft in a stall. I know it wasn’t a deliberate attempt to hold it in a stall but the stick fully back is what caused the stall isn’t it?

I understand the speed mis-match, caused by icing, was the initial problem but if held straight and level the aircraft would have continued on its merry way until clear of the icing conditions.

BV

Last edited by Bob Viking; 4th Jul 2019 at 10:03.
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Old 4th Jul 2019, 09:55
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The Vandenburg videos were the property of American Airlines and were removed from circulation after the AA587 crash in New York in 2001. In this accident, the PF used massive rudder inputs in response to wake turbulence which overloaded the fin and it sheared off. In one of the videos, Vandenburg had been advocating the aggressive use of rudder in some situations. It seems that American Airlines thought there might be some liability issues with advice that wasn't from the manufacturer.
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Old 4th Jul 2019, 10:46
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Dan W - as you possibly rememder. we used the Vandenberg videos for refreshers at your previous employer. I must have sat through them some 30-40 times and never got bored! The rudder over-application suggestion is a bit of a misapprehension and Warren VdB makes the point very clearly re. differences in type rudder effectiveness - MD11 "You can hold that puppy in level flight (knife-edge) ..." or something similar. There is so much in that series that rewards constant re-viewing.

Iron Duke - PM me.
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Old 4th Jul 2019, 10:49
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This video?
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Old 4th Jul 2019, 11:25
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Originally Posted by Iron Duke View Post
I wish the fantastic videos of Captain Warren Vanderberg ( Ex USN, and AA Training Captain), were freely and widely available on the internet ...

I remember watching them as a younger man, and they left me totally engaged in the subject ... his self affacing, open and honest description and remedy of Jet Upset scenarios were as good a training that has ever been recorded on video ..

I imagine being at the lectures ( " Children of the Magenta " ) was even more beneficial, but without exception everyone would be better prepared for an unintended, inadvertent entry into the Jet Upset environment. Having seen the lectures and considered privately their responses, every pilot would at least have a place to start if ever confronted with entry into the flight envelope way outside what is normally covered in formal simulator training ....

Does anyone know where these videos can be viewed in toto ... ?
.Youtube
nothing is ever webdead :-)

Last edited by neilki; 4th Jul 2019 at 11:38.
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Old 4th Jul 2019, 11:31
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One of the exciting developments is the growing availability of cheaper, so far fix based simulators. Ryanair have bought a number of these at around a million per box versus ten million for the full motion sim check variant. These can be booked for practice in a no jeopardy environment and would seem to offer a great opportunity to practice exactly this kind of stuff.
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Old 4th Jul 2019, 11:33
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Extended Envelope

Originally Posted by macdo View Post
Sorry, you misunderstood me, I was advocating a few years in crappy aircraft with no automation for all, but the opportunity for all to do this has now past. The only chance for improvement is for far more exacting training. Airlines will baulk at the cost, but legislators must insist. TBH I was given a completely unexpected unreliable speed in the sim a few month back (Airbus) and the sea of contra indications from the FWC was appalling. Fortunately, my brain immediately went to basics of attitude/power and it all worked out, but it was a bit heart stopping.
Baulk they may but the regulator did in the US. FAA AC Extended Envelope/Upset Recovery is mandatory initial and recurrent training under 121 (Scheduled Airline Services) in the land of the free. An extensive modification of simulators is underway (completed at the Airbus owned facilities in Denver & Miami)
It's very interactive includes Upset Recovery (near vertical, rolled through the horizon etc), HA stalls held well into the buffet and Unreliable Airspeeds.
The maneuvering is certainly aggressive and we've heard stories of the concrete platforms under Sims failing. Theres no doubt watching one from the outside what's going in within..
Good to see this becoming the norm globally.
Happy 4th

Last edited by neilki; 4th Jul 2019 at 11:49.
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