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A380 engine piece found in Groenland after 9 months

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A380 engine piece found in Groenland after 9 months

Old 7th Jul 2019, 13:41
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Originally Posted by tdracer
You know Smythe, your non-stop Boeing bashing has gotten rather old. You might want to find something new to bitch about.
Maybe he could talk about Airbus knowing they were flying aircraft with bad pitot tubes prior to AF447.
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 15:31
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Originally Posted by Sailvi767
Maybe he could talk about Airbus knowing they were flying aircraft with bad pitot tubes prior to AF447.
Not certain that is entirely justified, wasn't Air France making the decisions?

I've only a vague memory, but certainly some people seem to have thought so.

From https://www.economist.com/comment/1175706
Nalliah Thayabharan Aug 8th 2012 12:10 GMT

Majority of the 1,000 Airbus A330s and A340s are fitted with pitot probes 0851GR, manufactured by GOODRICH Sensors and Integrated Systems, the
standard offering by the airframer. Air France chose to equip its Airbus fleet with pitot probes C16195AA manufactured by THALES - a french manufacturer.
Airbus recommended that THALES pitot probes C16195AA should be replaced by THALES pitot probes C16195BA to prevent the problem of water intrusion
which had been observed. Air France replaced pitot probes on its Airbus A320s where the incidents of water ingress were observed, and decided to do so in
its Airbus A330s & A340s only when failures of pitot probes occurred.

In 2008 Air France experienced incidents involving THALES pitot probe icing for a few minutes, after which the phenomenon disappeared causing loss of airspeed
data in flight in cruise phase on A330s and A340s.In 2009, tests confirmed that the new pitot probe could improve its reliability, prompting Air France to accelerate
the replacement of pitot probes,but this work had not been carried out on the ill fated Airbus A330 - "F-GZCP".

In July 2009, Airbus issued new advice to A330 and A340 operators to replace french made THALES pitot probes with pitot probes from GOODRICH Sensors and
Integrated Systems.

On August 12, 2009, Airbus issued Mandatory Service Bulletins requiring pitot probes C16195AA manufactured by THALES were no longer tobe used. This requirement
was incorporated into Airworthiness Directives issued by the European Aviation Safety Agency - EASA on August 31, 2009 and by the US Federal Aviation Administration
- FAA (an operating mode of the U.S. Department of Transportation) on September 03, 2009.

Air France is owned by the state. THALES is french; Anyone who dares to challenge Air France goes bankrupt as did AOM (previously Air Outre-Mer) and Air Liberté.
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 20:26
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Originally Posted by pax2908
re. fan hub design & test ... and successful blade out tests are then fully analyzed .(the hub) ... to gain confidence in the "design to never fail" in the sense would not risk separating as a big piece as in AF66 ?
The do analyze the various components after the test for 'unexpected' distress of the various components, but I don't know specifics.
The problem that no one likes to talk about is that all these expensive tests and analysis assume the component is made properly. There are margins in the design to account for the expected variations between components, but no one knows how to analyze is it's not per drawing or the material is not per spec. IIRC, the problem with the Sioux City fan disc was some contamination in the titanium alloy that shouldn't have been there.
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 21:06
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Well I really hope that the recovered piece will yield some information about this incident.
Am I correct that the Engine Aliance is the less used 380 engine and not used on any current or future type?
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 21:31
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Originally Posted by Steepclimb
4 metres of ice since 2017? I thought it was all melting.
Living at 64N, my seasonal observation of snow is that it falls on the top and melt at the bottom...
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Old 7th Jul 2019, 22:59
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Originally Posted by atakacs
Well I really hope that the recovered piece will yield some information about this incident.
Am I correct that the Engine Aliance is the less used 380 engine and not used on any current or future type?
My memory says the market split between the EA and the Trent was reasonably close to 50/50 - it was about to swing well into Rolls favor when Emirates switched from EA to the Trent but most of those orders were subsequently cancelled.
I'm unaware of any plans of to use it on another aircraft type, and given it's an older generation design, that's unlikely to change.
That being said, EA powered A380s are likely to remain in service for many years, so if there is an issue that extends to any other engines, it would be good to find and correct it soon. Another uncontained failure might not end so happily (remember the uncontained Trent failure on Qantas 32 was a very close call).
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Old 8th Jul 2019, 01:37
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Originally Posted by tdracer
The do analyze the various components after the test for 'unexpected' distress of the various components, but I don't know specifics.
The problem that no one likes to talk about is that all these expensive tests and analysis assume the component is made properly. There are margins in the design to account for the expected variations between components, but no one knows how to analyze is it's not per drawing or the material is not per spec. IIRC, the problem with the Sioux City fan disc was some contamination in the titanium alloy that shouldn't have been there.
Just to add

The fan disk enjoys one of the highest overspeed stress margins due to it's primary design function to carry giant blades at low RPM Typically greater than 100% above the typical operating speed and the engine probably can't get it above 10% and still run as a cycle. Then the manufacturer designer considers low cycle fatigue (stop-start cycles) margin of > 20,000 takeoffs based on his reliable ability to detect the smallest metalurgical defect that could get into the material during manufacture/forging etc. The A380 should be oodles away from achieving that amount of cyclic use on a single engine.today.

That leaves us with unique one-offf failure modes rarely seen in service like misassembly, unexpected gross damage (maintenance or manufacture) or even improper material solvents (corrosives) and even rarer today, unexpected operating conditions (speed/temperature).

I'm quite sure the investigation is considering all of these as they proceed.
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Old 8th Jul 2019, 07:38
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Originally Posted by tdracer
My memory says the market split between the EA and the Trent was reasonably close to 50/50 - it was about to swing well into Rolls favor when Emirates switched from EA to the Trent but most of those orders were subsequently cancelled.
There have been 241 A380 built to date (including prototypes). Of those, 110 are RR-powered and the other 131 EA.

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Old 8th Jul 2019, 07:41
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
There have been 241 A380 built to date (including prototypes). Of those, 110 are RR-powered and the other 131 EA.
thanks for the data point.

But am I correct that they are not anymore produced (ie the last 380s - and I am pretty sure that all current orders will not be fulfilled - will be RR only)?
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Old 8th Jul 2019, 12:16
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Iompaseo said
Typically greater than 100% above the typical operating speed
That means the operating speed is running at less than 25% of burst stress.
The margins were nowhere near as generous when I was a boy, in fact they were scarily slim!
Has it really changed that much????
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Old 8th Jul 2019, 14:39
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Originally Posted by DType
Iompaseo said
Typically greater than 100% above the typical operating speed
That means the operating speed is running at less than 25% of burst stress.
The margins were nowhere near as generous when I was a boy, in fact they were scarily slim!
Has it really changed that much????
Regulatory wise the answer is No. That's because of the reg of minimum margin. Of course one can exceed that all you want at the expense of weight. So you can bet the manufacturer goes for minimum weight to ,meet all design requirements. That's easy to do with a perfect bell cross section (think solid flywheel), but with gas turbines you have to add in all those pesky blades screwing up your stress to weight numbers

Historically most overspeed failures are with turbines that snap their couplings (the compressor loadings). But even more common have been overstress combined with excessive temperature (fires). I can't even think of a fan rotor that can/has overspeeded to exceed its strength
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Old 21st Aug 2019, 20:53
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Reuters: Dozens of Airbus A380s face urgent checks after cracked part dug from ice
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-a...-idUSKCN1VB1GH

Confirming the focus of the probe after Reuters reported the plans for inspections, France’s BEA air accident agency said it had discovered a “sub-surface fatigue crack” on the recovered part [fan hub] and the engine maker was preparing checks.
BEA Twitter:


Accident @Airbus #A380 F-HPJE @airfrance 30/09/2017 - the part from the fan hub recovered on 01/07/19 has been examined by @enginealliance under @BEA_Aero supervision - metallurgical examination of the recovered titanium fan hub fragment identified a subsurface fatigue crack origin. -The fracture was initiated in a microtextured area approximately in the middle of the slot bottom. Examination of the fracture is ongoing. - @enginealliance has announced today to the concerned A380 operators that an engine inspection campaign will be launched soon.
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Old 22nd Aug 2019, 00:07
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Accident @Airbus #A380 F-HPJE @airfrance 30/09/2017 - the part from the fan hub recovered on 01/07/19 has been examined by @enginealliance under @BEA_Aerosupervision - metallurgical examination of the recovered titanium fan hub fragment identified a subsurface fatigue crack origin. -The fracture was initiated in a microtextured area approximately in the middle of the slot bottom. Examination of the fracture is ongoing. - @enginealliance has announced today to the concerned A380 operators that an engine inspection campaign will be launched soon.
Well if "triple melt" didn't get it, what happened to the manufacturers incoming sonic inspection? surely in this day and age we shouldn't be talking about a defect so small that still resulted in a catastrophic crack progression in so few cycles.
So which is it?.
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Old 22nd Aug 2019, 01:04
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Well the good news is that if the potential defect is in/near the dovetail slot, on-wing inspection should be reasonably easy and straight forward - something that could readily be done during an overnight.
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Old 22nd Aug 2019, 01:53
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Originally Posted by tdracer
Well the good news is that if the potential defect is in/near the dovetail slot, on-wing inspection should be reasonably easy and straight forward - something that could readily be done during an overnight.
Yea, should be fun taking all those blades out at 30-40 lbs per piece, on wing

and why should the defect be at one area on the disk rather than just anywhere ? unless of course it's a machining process defect?
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Old 22nd Aug 2019, 15:19
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Originally Posted by NiclasB
Living at 64N, my seasonal observation of snow is that it falls on the top and melt at the bottom...
Yes and no.

I think the snow falls on the top of the inland ice, but the huge pressure from the kilometre thick layer of ice, presses it to the sides into the glaciers along the edge, here it melts. So there is a steady flow of ice deep below to the sides.


This is one of the old DEW line radar stations still on the icecap, it was abandonned many years ago, and is slowly slipping into the ice.
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Old 22nd Aug 2019, 16:55
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Originally Posted by jmmoric
Yes and no.

I think the snow falls on the top of the inland ice, but the huge pressure from the kilometre thick layer of ice, presses it to the sides into the glaciers along the edge, here it melts. So there is a steady flow of ice deep below to the sides.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlDseTBwUlM

This is one of the old DEW line radar stations still on the icecap, it was abandonned many years ago, and is slowly slipping into the ice.
Think this is irresponsible behavior by the military.
To just abandon a facility, warts and all, without restoring the site even minimally is just abusing the environment.
It is also very evident in Alaska, where abandoned military sites at Barrow and Nome are slowly rotting away.
In Greenland, at Camp Century, I believe there was a lot of debris and even nuclear waste just dumped on the ice, which is now resurfacing.
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Old 22nd Aug 2019, 23:24
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Seems strange, this incident happened 2 years ago, it's reasonably apparent it's around the front fan, and yet detailed checks of that area on the engine type involved wait for 2 years to be identified. What if it had happened over water ?
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Old 23rd Aug 2019, 03:37
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Originally Posted by WHBM
Seems strange, this incident happened 2 years ago, it's reasonably apparent it's around the front fan, and yet detailed checks of that area on the engine type involved wait for 2 years to be identified. What if it had happened over water ?
Quite a few over the last 60 years years have been non-recovered. But they still were assessed for probable cause based on remaining evidence as the plane survives. Had a plane not survived much greater effort sometimes taking years, is employed to come up with probable initiating cause and corrective action of some sort.. If we stick to discussing only this one, then the question is just what action could one expect to take that even had a remote chance of preventing a completely unexpected event without an obvious cause.. I'm not saying nothing was done since everybody who operates in the industry was on the lookout for any problems with the fan as well as deep record searches of the pedigree itself. Hence the continued search in Greenland when the environment improved.
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Old 18th Nov 2019, 02:52
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CBC has a science show where there was an interview with one of the guys who worked on finding it. About half way through the link below. If ti does not work for any reason, it is Quirks and Quarks and was Sept. 14, 2019.

TME

http://cbc.mc.tritondigital.com/CBC_...L-20190913.mp3

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