Aer Arann runway incursion in Dublin
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The best instruction I had from ATC was following a string of about ten taxi ways, to b e replced shortly afterwards by "never mind that just follow the shamrock 737 pushing ahead of you". Perhaps standard taxi routings would help rather than complex strings of letters and numbers which are easy to confuse and get wrong when looking at the plate. ATC are not supposed to give more than 5 pieces of info in any one transmission(human performance)!!
Just a numbered other
My favourite here was, in the dead of night, asked after handover from Manchester if we were 'picking up the localiser for 28'. Bear in mind we were still over Cheshire and well out of the ILS protected range.
Anyway, we're cleared the approach. ATIS offline so we ask for the weather. Bored voice replies 'Foine!'
It was actually on CAT 1 limits!
Love the last words on handover: 'Good luck'.
Anyway, we're cleared the approach. ATIS offline so we ask for the weather. Bored voice replies 'Foine!'
It was actually on CAT 1 limits!
Love the last words on handover: 'Good luck'.
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another incursion today
Yet another runway incursion in Dublin this morning...
a Scandanavian 737 holding short entered the runway whilst a company 737 was on the approach...within 5nm i believe
no doubt FreeSpeed will have the actual nm.....but perhaps Dub ATC are reading this thread because the controller was on the ball and asked if they had passed the hold short line and entered the runway....to which the crew sheepishly replied "yes" and they were told to expedite and vacate onto Rwy34.....so once again although this time not ATC another potential situation occurs in EIDW....how long will this go on until the IAA/Aer Rianta club together to make better lighted markings and better comms...does it take for a mini Tenerife to happen with the airport boundary before they do something......
Yes i have been too told to "follow the Shamrock 321 ahead" to the holding point......was a bit wary....since tied to the tail of the 321 was a plackard saying...."don't follow me i'm lost too"
I have to say that for all the yank bashing that goes on on this site....ATC do give better instructions and a more willing to help even at busy airport like my home base of LAX.......
Also there must be a civil servant out there who is re-designing EIDW taxiways....because it is a little maze out there why not simplify things.......a standard taxi in and out would be alot easier...granted it depends on the runway in use.
If found that once vacated the active ATC gave a big speel of where you were to go....then handed you over to ground who gave a different speel and dare you question it, you are chastised like a kid on the air.....with a snooty reply almost saying" for the benefit of those who didn't hear it the first time..."
REALLY guys/gals in DUB ATC....get a life......you are not and will never be the MECCA of ATC.......so chill out......and just concentrate on safely getting everybody where they want to go
a Scandanavian 737 holding short entered the runway whilst a company 737 was on the approach...within 5nm i believe
no doubt FreeSpeed will have the actual nm.....but perhaps Dub ATC are reading this thread because the controller was on the ball and asked if they had passed the hold short line and entered the runway....to which the crew sheepishly replied "yes" and they were told to expedite and vacate onto Rwy34.....so once again although this time not ATC another potential situation occurs in EIDW....how long will this go on until the IAA/Aer Rianta club together to make better lighted markings and better comms...does it take for a mini Tenerife to happen with the airport boundary before they do something......
Yes i have been too told to "follow the Shamrock 321 ahead" to the holding point......was a bit wary....since tied to the tail of the 321 was a plackard saying...."don't follow me i'm lost too"
I have to say that for all the yank bashing that goes on on this site....ATC do give better instructions and a more willing to help even at busy airport like my home base of LAX.......
Also there must be a civil servant out there who is re-designing EIDW taxiways....because it is a little maze out there why not simplify things.......a standard taxi in and out would be alot easier...granted it depends on the runway in use.
If found that once vacated the active ATC gave a big speel of where you were to go....then handed you over to ground who gave a different speel and dare you question it, you are chastised like a kid on the air.....with a snooty reply almost saying" for the benefit of those who didn't hear it the first time..."
REALLY guys/gals in DUB ATC....get a life......you are not and will never be the MECCA of ATC.......so chill out......and just concentrate on safely getting everybody where they want to go
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Yes, there is a certain breed of civil servant in Ireland who genuinely think the sun, moon and stars shines out of their behinds and how dare you criticise them. For example, some Gardai, (Police). Witness recent court cases re the carry on of some of the Donegal Division and the reaction to May Day protesters in Dublin. An arrogance and a Who but me attitude that non Irish types would not immediately recognise. It is the smallness and the clanishness of these agencies, of course.
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This was in the Sunday business Post today. Nice to see that the journo has used the words
'In a confidential document seen by this newspaper, Irish and international pilots have criticised Aer Rianta for its poor runway markings, lighting and signs beside the runway, particularly in the context of this summer's poor weather conditions', she never mentioned PPRune. Anyway here is the full story:
Dublin, Ireland, 18 August, 2002
An Aer Arann aircraft strayed onto a busy runway at Dublin airport forcing an incoming Ryanair 737 to take action to avoid a collision, The Sunday Business Post has learned.
The incident on August 5 has added to pilots' growing concern about the number of runway incursions, where aircraft taxi onto active runways without permission from air traffic controllers.
Pilots are blaming an increase in "near miss" incidents on poor runway markings at the airport, as well as a low standard of instructions from air traffic controllers.
The Irish Aviation Authority confirmed the runway incident, and described the one nautical mile distance between the two planes as "not ideal".
A spokeswoman said the incident had been logged by air traffic controllers through the mandatory occurrence reporting scheme, and had been investigated.
"Aer Arann had been instructed to `hold short', but wandered onto the runway. At that stage the air traffic controllers gave an order to Ryanair to `go around', which is to start climbing again," she said.
In a confidential document seen by this newspaper, Irish and international pilots have criticised Aer Rianta for its poor runway markings, lighting and signs beside the runway, particularly in the context of this summer's poor weather conditions.
The Irish Aviation Authority, which is responsible for airport safety, has not asked Aer Rianta to upgrade aspects of the runway, because the airport's markings are up to the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) specifications, the spokeswoman said.
But pilots say the ICAO specifications are a minimum standard.
They point out that the aviation authorities at Charles de Gaulle airport in Paris upgraded runway markings beyond ICAO guidelines, on the basis that they should be of higher quality.
"We have not received any complaints from pilots about runway markings, but any complaints of this nature would be followed up," the IAA spokeswoman said.
"We would invite pilots with concerns to make them known to us."
Pilots have also accused air traffic controllers of issuing unclear, hurried and confusing instructions for take-off and landing, using slang and colloquialisms, and of clearing descent into Dublin at varying altitudes.
The IAA spokeswoman responded: "Staff are consistently reminded about using the correct phrases and this will continue.
"Now that this has been brought to our attention, we will raise the question of the standard of phraseology through a consultative process with operators at the airport."
'In a confidential document seen by this newspaper, Irish and international pilots have criticised Aer Rianta for its poor runway markings, lighting and signs beside the runway, particularly in the context of this summer's poor weather conditions', she never mentioned PPRune. Anyway here is the full story:
Dublin, Ireland, 18 August, 2002
An Aer Arann aircraft strayed onto a busy runway at Dublin airport forcing an incoming Ryanair 737 to take action to avoid a collision, The Sunday Business Post has learned.
The incident on August 5 has added to pilots' growing concern about the number of runway incursions, where aircraft taxi onto active runways without permission from air traffic controllers.
Pilots are blaming an increase in "near miss" incidents on poor runway markings at the airport, as well as a low standard of instructions from air traffic controllers.
The Irish Aviation Authority confirmed the runway incident, and described the one nautical mile distance between the two planes as "not ideal".
A spokeswoman said the incident had been logged by air traffic controllers through the mandatory occurrence reporting scheme, and had been investigated.
"Aer Arann had been instructed to `hold short', but wandered onto the runway. At that stage the air traffic controllers gave an order to Ryanair to `go around', which is to start climbing again," she said.
In a confidential document seen by this newspaper, Irish and international pilots have criticised Aer Rianta for its poor runway markings, lighting and signs beside the runway, particularly in the context of this summer's poor weather conditions.
The Irish Aviation Authority, which is responsible for airport safety, has not asked Aer Rianta to upgrade aspects of the runway, because the airport's markings are up to the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) specifications, the spokeswoman said.
But pilots say the ICAO specifications are a minimum standard.
They point out that the aviation authorities at Charles de Gaulle airport in Paris upgraded runway markings beyond ICAO guidelines, on the basis that they should be of higher quality.
"We have not received any complaints from pilots about runway markings, but any complaints of this nature would be followed up," the IAA spokeswoman said.
"We would invite pilots with concerns to make them known to us."
Pilots have also accused air traffic controllers of issuing unclear, hurried and confusing instructions for take-off and landing, using slang and colloquialisms, and of clearing descent into Dublin at varying altitudes.
The IAA spokeswoman responded: "Staff are consistently reminded about using the correct phrases and this will continue.
"Now that this has been brought to our attention, we will raise the question of the standard of phraseology through a consultative process with operators at the airport."
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"We have not received any complaints from pilots about runway markings, but any complaints of this nature would be followed up," the IAA spokeswoman said.
It's up to them to follow up on it.
Or not.
"We would invite pilots with concerns to make them known to us."
No pilot (who needs the job) is going to go over the head of their company to report the IAAs failings - to the IAA- in person under their own name.
Not a hope in this banana republic.
Nice to see we made the papers though.
PPRuNe strikes again.
Last edited by maxalt; 19th Aug 2002 at 11:54.
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confidential newspaper reporting
Hi there
yeah just had a friend of mine from Dublin fly in to LAX and had a copy of the Sunday Biz post.....
the reporter Niamh Connolly certainly deserves 10 out of 10 for finding "confidential reports"....i had to laugh when i read it considering most of the posts were quoted almost verbatum....
Seems to me that the Sunday Biz post's roving reporter must be looking for stardom.......
She could atleast tell the truth about where she got the info rather that try and pretend that it was a brilliant feat of journalism.....please.....
But it was WORTH the laugh...... poor girl needs to get out more
yeah just had a friend of mine from Dublin fly in to LAX and had a copy of the Sunday Biz post.....
the reporter Niamh Connolly certainly deserves 10 out of 10 for finding "confidential reports"....i had to laugh when i read it considering most of the posts were quoted almost verbatum....
Seems to me that the Sunday Biz post's roving reporter must be looking for stardom.......
She could atleast tell the truth about where she got the info rather that try and pretend that it was a brilliant feat of journalism.....please.....
But it was WORTH the laugh...... poor girl needs to get out more
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Stargazer, just to clarify what I wrote, when I referred to the lack of a confidential reporting system I was not talking about a whistle-blowers line to the newspaper. What I meant was a proper confidential reporting system established by (or in conjunction with) the IAA and which is based on models like the UKs CHIRP or NASA's ASRS (Air Safety Reporting System).
As to Miss Conolly, at least she put our concerns in the public domain. Lets not discourage her from doing so again.
As to Miss Conolly, at least she put our concerns in the public domain. Lets not discourage her from doing so again.
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Max Alt
Absolutely....i agree and wasn't saying for 1 minute that one
should ring the newspapers....but the way the newspaper report
seemed to read that as Ms Connolly had somehow through
good reporting skills uncovered a "confidential report" rather than
just copying down what she read on this site....that's all
I think that if all ya'll don't have a confidential reporting system in the Emerald Isle then you all should do....perhaps IALPA should sort something out?????
should ring the newspapers....but the way the newspaper report
seemed to read that as Ms Connolly had somehow through
good reporting skills uncovered a "confidential report" rather than
just copying down what she read on this site....that's all
I think that if all ya'll don't have a confidential reporting system in the Emerald Isle then you all should do....perhaps IALPA should sort something out?????
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Despite the various problems associated with DUB - lighting, taxiways etc, Aer Rianta are seeking submissions for a new independently run air terminal in addition to a fast turn around pier to be in place by 2003.
How many more incursions will there be then?
Dublin has also come quite low in the pecking order for ontime departures - I don't think the addition of a new termianal will alter that for the better.
Overlooking the existing problems and the potential for a lot more, the proposal has been welcomed as being significant and a positive step towards the future development of tourism.
This proposal apparently "could put Ireland's airport structure ahead of other European cities while increasing competitive choice for airlines".
Are delays really going to do that.....?
How many more incursions will there be then?
Dublin has also come quite low in the pecking order for ontime departures - I don't think the addition of a new termianal will alter that for the better.
Overlooking the existing problems and the potential for a lot more, the proposal has been welcomed as being significant and a positive step towards the future development of tourism.
This proposal apparently "could put Ireland's airport structure ahead of other European cities while increasing competitive choice for airlines".
Are delays really going to do that.....?
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Are delays really going to do that.....?
Come visit our wonderful airport and it's amazing facilities, it will all make sense.
btw Aer Rianta have nothing to do with the new terminal and are in fact opposed to it, which is why it's a good idea.
Come visit our wonderful airport and it's amazing facilities, it will all make sense.
btw Aer Rianta have nothing to do with the new terminal and are in fact opposed to it, which is why it's a good idea.
