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Another Disruptive Passenger

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Another Disruptive Passenger

Old 25th Jun 2019, 17:48
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You may not like what the mods have done, you may feel some questions were reasonable, but certainly some airlines (and some regulatory authorities) take a dim matter of airline staff engaging in discussions about certain aspects of the day job.

I saw some of the posts before they were deleted - I can understand why the mods took the action they did.
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Old 25th Jun 2019, 18:32
  #62 (permalink)  
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several quite reasonable posts, from myself and @DaveReidUK (surely a very well respected PPRuNe poster) have been silently deleted here, by people who clearly aren't open to rational debate.
I am the moderator who deleted the referenced posts. I am generally opened to rational debates, though I am not open to rational debates on all topics. I ask myself: "Is this discussion (or thread drift) useful and contributing to the topic, or pilots in general?" And; "Could this discussion take aviation somewhere it will regret being, with no beneficial value along the way?". Then, I will consider the following:

The PPRuNe guidance material includes the following statement:

Final arbitration always rests with the moderator and administration team. This team also retains the right to remove any post, any thread and/or any member for any reason or no reason at all.
Then, I may delete posts which I feel do not contribute, or are otherwise unhelpful.

I am a pilot with a lot of understanding of the factors of cockpit door use, design and operation. I have participated in post 9/11 cockpit door design standard development. I know that the necessary security information is available to the appropriate aviation industry people of any nationality or ethnic group. I know that if a concern or defect is found or suspected, there is an appropriate private communication path for pilots and maintainers to advance it. I know that discussion about that is not necessary on a public forum.

The discussion of unruly passengers does have merit here. Some of the things which unruly passengers may do could cross into an area where public discussion is no longer beneficial, and that discussion will not be welcomed on this forum. Moderators (including me) will judge that with their best skill, and benefit to the PPRuNe audience, and we'll leave it at that.
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Old 25th Jun 2019, 18:34
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I saw a lady run down the aisle and start hammering on the cockpit door. Iím sure she had a panic attack, and Iím sure once it was all over the crew knew that too. It was quite scary initially, and massively inconvenient for everyone on board, but I donít think for a moment anyone thought she was either drunk or deserved jail time.
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Old 25th Jun 2019, 18:34
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Originally Posted by Pilot DAR
Let's focus the discussion on passenger conduct, and not discuss cockpit door systems. Those who need to know, already know, and that is sufficient.
I'm not sure what more could be added other than "... and those who DON'T need to know SHOULDN'T be told.", just to make it 100% clear for Paul852.

This naÔve whining and bleating on about falling into the latter category rather than the former appears very much like a petulant child that isn't getting its own way.

Last edited by pilotmike; 25th Jun 2019 at 18:51.
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Old 25th Jun 2019, 18:53
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Originally Posted by Paul852
Well obviously the anonymous people who run this site also agree since several quite reasonable posts, from myself and @DaveReidUK (surely a very well respected PPRUNE poster) have been silently deleted here, by people who clearly aren't open to rational debate.
For avoidance of doubt, I am certainly not advocating discussion of specific security measures on PPRuNe or any other public forum.

Equally, I do not dispute the authority of the mods to delete posts which overstep the mark (including, if they so wish, this one).

My point was a much more general one - that "security" (of any sort) that relies solely or mainly on some people knowing how something works while others (we hope) don't know, is built on a very shaky foundation.
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Old 25th Jun 2019, 19:09
  #66 (permalink)  
 
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RAF fighters escorted Jet2 flight after ‘miscommunication’


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48756189
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Old 25th Jun 2019, 21:00
  #67 (permalink)  
 
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So now we know.

I owe an apology to the crew involved for suggesting they may have over reacted. They clearly did not.

I trust the security methodolgy we have been asked not to post about is robust enough at all airlines to ensure over reaction does not occur.
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Old 26th Jun 2019, 00:56
  #68 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by DaveReidUK
For avoidance of doubt, I am certainly not advocating discussion of specific security measures on PPRuNe or any other public forum.

Equally, I do not dispute the authority of the mods to delete posts which overstep the mark (including, if they so wish, this one).

My point was a much more general one - that "security" (of any sort) that relies solely or mainly on some people knowing how something works while others (we hope) don't know, is built on a very shaky foundation.
Not sure that I understand the last bit. "Security", by definition requires knowledge to be held by some people whilst being withheld from others. What is "shaky" about that precept?

I'm often astonished by the information sometimes given on the forum and which clearly is of a confidential nature. I'm happy to recognise things as such and respect their supposed status but that may not apply to others. I think Pilot DAR's explanation is quite sufficient and should be accepted without quibble. To suggest that management of the forum is censorious is unfair - pop into Jet Blast to see how wide the latitudes of acceptability really are.
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Old 26th Jun 2019, 03:54
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Originally Posted by vancouv
'We didn't shoot it down because we didn't want to kill everyone on board plus those down below and we didn't think it was likely it was another 9/11 so the crash into central London which killed several thousand people rather then the 300 if we'd shot it down was unfortunate.....'

Load Toad - i get where you're coming from but it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation - before 9/11 it might have seemed impossible, sadly now that's no longer the case.

In that case, I'd much rather be dammed because I didn't. Ordering the shoot down of an aircraft and killing innocent people because if I don't the terrorist will kill them..and possibly some others on the ground, is an abhorrent strategy. By the way vancouv, another thing that's changed since 911 is that passengers no longer remain compliant and seated when airborne terrorist/unruly passenger situations occur. They fight to retake the aircraft or group to subdue the unruly one. Unless they get shot down by their own!!

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Old 26th Jun 2019, 09:56
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An awful situation either way, and I'm glad it's not a decision I will ever have to make.
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Old 26th Jun 2019, 10:08
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Originally Posted by Gipsy Queen
Not sure that I understand the last bit. "Security", by definition requires knowledge to be held by some people whilst being withheld from others. What is "shaky" about that precept?

I'm often astonished by the information sometimes given on the forum and which clearly is of a confidential nature. I'm happy to recognise things as such and respect their supposed status but that may not apply to others. I think Pilot DAR's explanation is quite sufficient and should be accepted without quibble. To suggest that management of the forum is censorious is unfair - pop into Jet Blast to see how wide the latitudes of acceptability really are.

It's a maxim in the IT world that security by obscurity is no security and is dangerously delusional.


ie Things are either genuinely, protected, secrets or they are public knowledge. There is nothing usefully in between.

To take a silly example that cannot possibly exercise the admins, the idea that a certain transponder code can be usefully kept as an obscure fact, known to every pilot and everyone who has ever thought about flying, but not bad guys is, errm, not based in logic!

Last edited by double_barrel; 26th Jun 2019 at 10:29.
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Old 26th Jun 2019, 10:13
  #72 (permalink)  
 
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Having been on a Jet2 flight to Ibiza recently there is a dichotomy in the airlineís management of these issues.

While they have prominent policies to try to reduce problems, and donít sell alcohol until 0800, they actively promote the sale and consumption of alcohol. The flight had a flight time of 2:50. Take off was at 0710 and from 0800 there was 3 alcoholic drinks services. There were announcements encouraging passengers to buy extra alcohol to consume on their onward transfers to the resorts. There was a 4th unofficial sale of alcohol to a drunken group as the trolley came back to the front of the plane. Luckily the group of boys involved just managed to keep to right side of exuberant, but it was on a knife edge. I would not have liked to see their reactions during an emergency exit.

Overall Jet2 is a well run airline and their staff are always professional and courteous. The problem is that of company policy.

Considering the options for airport drinking prior to boarding, 4 drinks services is irresponsible and not in keeping with the publicly expressed policies. The airlines do need to take some blame for drunk passengers too!
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Old 26th Jun 2019, 12:20
  #73 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Pjen26
Having been on a Jet2 flight to Ibiza recently there is a dichotomy in the airlineís management of these issues.

While they have prominent policies to try to reduce problems, and donít sell alcohol until 0800, they actively promote the sale and consumption of alcohol. The flight had a flight time of 2:50. Take off was at 0710 and from 0800 there was 3 alcoholic drinks services. There were announcements encouraging passengers to buy extra alcohol to consume on their onward transfers to the resorts. There was a 4th unofficial sale of alcohol to a drunken group as the trolley came back to the front of the plane. Luckily the group of boys involved just managed to keep to right side of exuberant, but it was on a knife edge. I would not have liked to see their reactions during an emergency exit.

Overall Jet2 is a well run airline and their staff are always professional and courteous. The problem is that of company policy.

Considering the options for airport drinking prior to boarding, 4 drinks services is irresponsible and not in keeping with the publicly expressed policies. The airlines do need to take some blame for drunk passengers too!
Well, they banned smoking. What alcohol is doing in a high tech. safety related business can well be debated. Canít we do without it for a few hours?
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Old 26th Jun 2019, 15:17
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Of course we can do without it for a few hours, but the people making big profits from it can't - that's the bottom line. If it was impossible to buy alcohol at an airport or on all flights people would still fly. But while it's there a small minority will continue to abuse it, and unfortunately this minority has a big effect on the rest of society, particularly in the confined area of a plane.
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Old 26th Jun 2019, 19:22
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Originally Posted by vancouv
Of course we can do without it for a few hours, but the people making big profits from it can't - that's the bottom line. If it was impossible to buy alcohol at an airport or on all flights people would still fly. But while it's there a small minority will continue to abuse it, and unfortunately this minority has a big effect on the rest of society, particularly in the confined area of a plane.
Yes, so once again it is profits versus safety. A shame there isnít something like the Hippocratic oath for airlines - and manufacturers...

At least the crews are trying to keep it safe.
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Old 26th Jun 2019, 23:33
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Originally Posted by SLF3
I saw a lady run down the aisle and start hammering on the cockpit door. Iím sure she had a panic attack, and Iím sure once it was all over the crew knew that too. It was quite scary initially, and massively inconvenient for everyone on board, but I donít think for a moment anyone thought she was either drunk or deserved jail time.
Comes to it I believe many would have no issue is assisting crew in subduing said passenger. Great everything is ok afterwards but I want there to be an afterwards.
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Old 27th Jun 2019, 00:09
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Lock 'Em Up!

Originally Posted by vancouv
Of course we can do without it for a few hours, but the people making big profits from it can't - that's the bottom line. If it was impossible to buy alcohol at an airport or on all flights people would still fly. But while it's there a small minority will continue to abuse it, and unfortunately this minority has a big effect on the rest of society, particularly in the confined area of a plane.
Vancouv;

I'm not singling out your post for criticism, because it succinctly outlines the problem; however, I am tired of the all too common attitude of many folks who do not hesitate to ban a legal activity, thus restricting one more freedom. It is much easier to ban an activity than it is to manage/regulate it, thus our 'rulers" (legislators etc.) often choose the easy way out with no consideration of individual freedoms. If any passenger willfully disregards the instruction of cabin crew, they should be dealt with firmly. I don't know about other areas, but here in the U.S.A., reports of unruly passengers being arrested for such an infraction are few and far between.

Cheers,
Grog
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Old 27th Jun 2019, 05:59
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Cabin Crew will sell alcohol multipule times along with other duty free items to get commission to support in some cases their poor salaries. Ryanair have been known to haul you in and ask why you haven't achieved your targets if your sales are down.
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 12:44
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Disruptive passenger jailed and fined the costs of the turn around...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/disrup...ined-1.5202603
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Old 6th Jul 2019, 13:39
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Originally Posted by capngrog
Vancouv;

I'm not singling out your post for criticism, because it succinctly outlines the problem; however, I am tired of the all too common attitude of many folks who do not hesitate to ban a legal activity, thus restricting one more freedom. It is much easier to ban an activity than it is to manage/regulate it, thus our 'rulers" (legislators etc.) often choose the easy way out with no consideration of individual freedoms. If any passenger willfully disregards the instruction of cabin crew, they should be dealt with firmly. I don't know about other areas, but here in the U.S.A., reports of unruly passengers being arrested for such an infraction are few and far between.

Cheers,
Grog
In an ideal world... We have been trying to regulate alcohol on board for ever it seems - and it doesnít work. The only way is to ban it on board - just like smoking - and incidentally save a bit of fuel.

Edit for afterthought - would also remove the source of free booze for crew streakers - for better or for worse...
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