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Embraer to be known as Boeing Brazil

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Embraer to be known as Boeing Brazil

Old 2nd Jun 2019, 19:32
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175-E2 is dead? Embraer just started the first 175-E2 assembly literally this week!
The launch customer bailed. The 175-E2, well, the entire E2 line is already outdated. It does not even have composite wings....Who are they producing these 175-E2's for? They have space and money to build aircraft with no buyers?



The only hope is that some of the 175 backlog converts, then again, there are less than 200 of those...

Airbus moved quickly and acquired the C-Series Ltd. as soon as they had a chance, while Boeing first rejected Bombardier's offer to cooperate on C-series, and was then caught napping when the aircraft market "suddenly" shifted from under them
Exactly. Boeing handed the C Series to Airbus. Again, due to poor decisions and lack of forward thinking, Boeing is once again, forced to react to an Airbus decision.

Like the A320neo forced the MAX, and the A321XLR is going to force, well, nothing...they lost that market.

As noted before, the ENTIRE line for Embraer made $400 million, not just the part Boeing purchased. The bulk of the sales were in the part of the commercial business that Boeing did NOT purchase.

Question for you future, in the US, are the airlines replacing the E series with E2's, or A220 series?

No one wants the 190E2, and the 195E2 is no where near the ac the 220 is...(Where are the 190/195 E2 sales?)

Last edited by Smythe; 2nd Jun 2019 at 21:36.
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Old 2nd Jun 2019, 20:02
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It was a pleasure to be rated on the Boeing Bandeirante. 😎
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Old 2nd Jun 2019, 21:46
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Originally Posted by Smythe
The launch customer bailed. The 175-E2, well, the entire E2 line is already outdated. It does not even have composite wings....Who are they producing these 175-E2's for? They have space and money to build aircraft with no buyers?
I'm not sure what you mean by 'outdated'. The E2 has a completely new wing design introducing FBW technology to the ailerons (the previous versions of the E-jet had the conventional cables controlling the ailerons, although the other flight control surfaces were FBW).

The original launch customer for the E175-E2 was SkyWest in the USA and being a regional airline, they were subjected to scope clauses from their mainline partners which limited the size of the aircraft which they could operate. With the E2 having an MTOW higher than the legacy E175, it no longer met the scope clauses to which SkyWest operates and consequently they have had to drop their orders. It was not for a lack of faith in the product which you seem to be alluding to with your post.
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Old 2nd Jun 2019, 22:15
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Originally Posted by VH DSJ
The original launch customer for the E175-E2 was SkyWest in the USA and being a regional airline, they were subjected to scope clauses from their mainline partners which limited the size of the aircraft which they could operate. With the E2 having an MTOW higher than the legacy E175, it no longer met the scope clauses to which SkyWest operates and consequently they have had to drop their orders. It was not for a lack of faith in the product which you seem to be alluding to with your post.
If you're hanging off the window, does it matter if someone steps on your fingers intentionally or accidentally?
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Old 3rd Jun 2019, 02:55
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Originally Posted by ProPax
If you're hanging off the window, does it matter if someone steps on your fingers intentionally or accidentally?
And your point is?
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Old 3rd Jun 2019, 03:31
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Originally Posted by Smythe
The only hope is that some of the 175 backlog converts, then again, there are less than 200 of those...
No, they are courting new customers for the 175, especially in Asia.

Originally Posted by Smythe
It does not even have composite wings
Because composite wings would have been a sub-optimal choice for the E2.

You seem to think there's something magical about composite wings. Well there isn't. You trade off weight vs. cost. Embraer did a full analysis comparing composite wing cost vs. benefits for the E2 mission profile and decided that traditional wings were superior. And for the E2, they're exactly right!

Originally Posted by Smythe
As noted before, the ENTIRE line for Embraer made $400 million, not just the part Boeing purchased. The bulk of the sales were in the part of the commercial business that Boeing did NOT purchase.
WRONG. Sorry but you guys keep repeating this rubbish. Please do a little bit of research before talking nonsense!

The division Boeing took stake in is the most profitable division of Embraer, as I've explained multiple times now.

CNBC: "Under the terms of the deal finalized in December, Boeing will pay $4.2 billion to control Embraer’s most profitable division, supplying passenger jets to airlines."

Reuters: "Embraer is finalizing a deal to sell 80 percent of its commercial aviation division, its most profitable unit, to Boeing for $4.2 billion..."

I'm done here.
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Old 3rd Jun 2019, 07:02
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When comparing the E2-Series with the A220/CSeries, saying that the latter is the better aircraft is maybe a bit like saying that a Mercedes is better than a Ford. The Dash 8-400 is also a better aircraft than the ATR72, yet the latter outsells the former by a big margin. The E-Series was built to be cheap (and lightweight) and that shows everywhere around the aircraft. Embraer/Boeing Brazil will probably have to sell it cheaper than Airbus but with a Brazil production line it can probably do so still turning a profit as labor will be cheaper than in Quebec or the US.
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Old 3rd Jun 2019, 13:44
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Composite wing may not have been the best solution for the old fuselage, probably not cost effective to redesign the wingbox and everything based on the wing. The 195-E2 is cheaper than the -300, but pax count and range put the -200 far ahead.

Sales of the 190 or 190-E2, 175-E2 are virtually non-existant.

Bottom line is sales. Jetblue did not go with E2, they went with 220. Jetblue is dumping its fleet of 10 year old 190's and will not have any by 2025 as they were too expensive to operate. Saving 25% on an aircraft that was too expensive to operate is not a plus.
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Old 4th Jun 2019, 08:51
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Originally Posted by VH DSJ


And your point is?
It's the end result that matters. The above discussion didn't imply SkyWest didn't have trust in E2. I don't see anything that might have caused you to believe that. E-jets are wonderful planes and served well both to Embraer and their customers. They sold what?... 1500 of them. What we were talking about is the fact that 175-E2 doesn't have any orders. The reason for that is irrelevant. Hence my dramatic metaphor.
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Old 4th Jun 2019, 08:52
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Think with everything going on I suggest Boeing rebrands to Embrear US, and the 737 to E199.....
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Old 4th Jun 2019, 09:23
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Originally Posted by cooperplace
Ever flown on a 757-300? I did on Continental, if memory serves me; I thought it was horrible. Way too long for single-aisle. They were the worst aircraft in recent times for pax. IMHO.
The aircraft was OK but deplaning was an issue if seats down the back
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Old 5th Jun 2019, 15:19
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The financials are a sinking boat, while there was the $400 million in 2018, most of it was in the first quarter, and by 4th quarter it was losing big, mostly due to lack of sales of the E2 series.

018 was also half of what is was in 2017...

Sorry, just dont see the E2 as much of a contender anymore. I have no idea what Mitsu buying the CRJ will have on the rest of the Embraer line.
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Old 19th Jun 2019, 16:24
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KLM to buy up to 35 Embraer 195-E2 jets:

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/ar...r-list-459202/

Additionally, Spanish regional Binter Canarias -- the European launch customer for the 195-E2 -- exercised an option to buy two more 195-E2s, totaling five firm orders.
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Old 19th Jun 2019, 16:32
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United bought up to 39 175's, no E2 versions....
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Old 19th Jun 2019, 17:16
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Embraer and Boeing are smiling either way.

A big factor right now is the relatively low cost of fuel. If you're already a large E175 customer, the higher initial cost of the E2 version might not compensate for the per trip cost savings from better fuel efficiency. (KLM doesn't own any E195s so buying 195-E2 makes sense for them).

The CSeries / A220 is in a worse position in this respect, since it was designed when Bombardier was projecting oil price going to $150/barrel in their business case. That justified a much more expensive clean-sheet aircraft as long as it's fuel efficient compared to the current fleet. But oil today is closer to $60 than to $150, and Bombardier -- having placed the wrong bet -- is likely mere days away from exiting the commercial aircraft business.
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Old 20th Jun 2019, 07:53
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Get me hat time...

Might not be a bad idea for B to rename itself Embraer North...
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